JoeK

No, not an opinion at all. Reinforcement has a clear definition, if the reward doesn't increase or maintain the behaviour it is not a reinforcer. That is a fact, not my opinion. If your dog wouldn't do what you asked if you didn't use a correction, then you didn't increase or maintain the behaviour with the reward. Whether the dog wags his tail or not doesn't have any bearing. Tell me, Joe, what do you think the definition of force is? We always have a "choice", having a choice does not mean we were not forced. Indeed, so I take it you don't use corrections with high drive dogs at all because it's so easy to reinforce them to make the choice to come in any distraction? Theory is good Aidan, results is whats counting on the bottom line in the dog training,yes? The failing a reinforcer happening in distraction, so you train the dog here command and reward with the treat no worries. And then he sees a cat and you command here and he says stuff you treat I rather have snack on the cat instead. You cant having him snack on somebody cat is no good so when he make the choice to disobey and chase the cat, he cop a correction is what I am saying. His choice to disobey and chase the cat wasnt nice for him, so when he come back to me after correction, I rewarding him for coming back and he learn is much nicer coming back for treat than disobeying and do his own thing. The dog he learn this and after few corrections for the disobey he learn which choice is best. What it reinforce on the treat is its good coming back to the handler. Is too late anyway to reinforce what he did 2 secs ago becuase the dog living in the moment is fact too. What I say with the high drive dog is what I would be using to get best result and be positve trainer with no corrections becuase motivated dog is easy to train than low drive dog lacking the easy focus. Joe

Avoidance learning is where the dog learns to do what you want in order to avoid a correction. Ultimately you want the dog to do what you have asked, when you ask, not when you correct him for not doing it in the first place. Does that make sense? I dont using the corrections for forcing a dog to do something. What I do is apply aversive for disobeying and give him a choice, come to me for praise and reward or choose not to come and get a correction so the dog make the choice I think you are confused about what "forcing a dog to do something" means. If you apply an aversive if the dog doesn't do what you want, you are forcing the dog. If you don't have to use the aversive any more, that is avoidance learning. The reward may or may not mean anything at all. In fact, if you leave out the correction and the dog doesn't make the choice to come to you, the reward was meaningless no matter how much the dog lapped it up. You need to find something that is actually a reinforcer, and not just something your dog will enjoy but not enough to choose it without coercion. Forcing a dog to do something on the aversive on my books is like stepping on the leash from a sit position to force a drop, the leash pop doesnt doing this is over in milisecond like the Ecollar stim doesn't force the dog becuase nothing attached to the dog and the handler 100 meters away, dog has the choice to come or not, come to me and we have a pat and a treat or go the other way and cop a correction. The reward of no meaning is someone opinion I am not believing is true on my experience. As I mentioning before, if the dog has good drives is easy to finding reinforcer to make the choice to come in any distraction, but if the drive is low on the dog finding the reinforcer sometimes needing a little extra to keep his head in the right track what we doing. Joe What you tell us here about the reward and correction is someone opinion is not fact

Firstly to teach this, you needing a reward higher on the value for her than barking at the fencing. If barking on the fence is her best fun is very difficult to train the mat instead when focus is on the people behind the fencing? Joe

Yes,there are not nice dogs out there is true, so for my opinion is time people understanding this and keep away from leashed dogs like on this report, leashed dogs are not threat if you leave them be. How is 5 year old allowed to be in biting range of leashed dog, shouldnt be happening. Joe

Yes, my opinion would be wrong to having people to give her treats from other side of fence, becuase it can making her worse with excitement for seeing people. In the neutralise, you training her to focus on you when the people are walking past, so she see the people but is you where the fun is not the people, so when the people are coming, I would play and reward her for focus on you and not the people so she dont get value from the people either from barking or looking for play with them. I am thinking high value reward in this training so she doesnt breaking focus ignoring you and run to the fence. So when she look at the people in the beginning, you then distract her away from them on to you with play and reward is what I would be thinking to do so she learns the people dont mean anything walking past. Is hard becuase times you miss the people coming and she does bark is conteract on your good work in the training, so you say in her pen she can see the people, maybe can block off that side of the pen so she can only see people out on the grass where you are there and training with her and having control of what she doing. Joe Is beautiful yard I am liking very much too.

So here is a situation where doing something other than what you have asked is likely to be reinforced. Avoidance learning is where the dog learns to do what you want in order to avoid a correction. Ultimately you want the dog to do what you have asked, when you ask, not when you correct him for not doing it in the first place. Does that make sense? I dont using the corrections for forcing a dog to do something. What I do is apply aversive for disobeying and give him a choice, come to me for praise and reward or choose not to come and get a correction so the dog make the choice which is best for him on the command and he learn is nice to listen and obey becuase he get the praise the treat or the toy rewarding and if he doesnt obeying he gets correction and no rewarding. Joe

Is very challenging yard for dog not be barking, but my opinion is you need plenty of the people walking on the path where reward can be given for no barking so she is getting used to people along there. Is more difficult when only sometimes she see somebody. When she older you could fixing this with Ecollar training on the low stim works for the barking well for this situation but I can see is situation taking much work if she is already liking to have a bark. Joe

So should I be ashamed if I admit that I haven't trained a really reliable recall with one of my dogs because it has been too difficult? I've put much, much, much more time into his recall than my other dog yet he's way less reliable than her. Edit: I'm not saying that training a great recall on him is impossible, it just takes too much work and management than I am prepared to put in. Even getting him to recall in the house is almost a full time job :p Even dog of the same breeding, I have years ago two Shepherd girls for the training sisters of the litter and both training is the same. One of the girls she having natural recall beautiful you dropping the leash she stop and wait for me. The other girl her sister I droppig the leash, she run away and I chasing her for 5 kilometer the bugger, and she very hard dog to train on the recall where he sister she just does it no effort. joe

I agree with this with dogs of the right trait for this type of training, but is not reliable on every dog where consequence works better on some traits and cant training every dog best from one training method doesnt work, it depends on the individual dog character what is best working. If a dog having good focus from food and toy drive, this dogs you can training without consequence easy, but dogs with low drive and tunnel vision on the bad behaviour is easier to train from consequence in the training also. Drive is born in the dog, you can build drive to a point but you cant put drive in a dog for handler focus for all distractions when the dog has low drive on the genetics and the training must be suiting the type of dog. Joe Note that I didn't apply a blanket statement regarding consequences or otherwise. I stated that we can build very reliable behaviours without anything more than reinforcement, response prevention and extinction; I did not say that we could do that for every behaviour that we want from every dog. But I'll play along - if you have the most stubborn, hard-headed dog in existence, what benefit does a correction for failure to comply offer if the dog is just sitting there like a stunned mullet? How would you know if he was being "stubborn" vs "unmotivated" vs "confused"? (I'm not saying you can't know, I'm asking how you might satisfy yourself that this is the case) If you choose to ignore the failure to respond appropriately, wait a second, ask again then reward the correct response - are you in a better or worse position than if you had chosen to "correct" the dog instead? Firsty the dog he must know the behavior so is no good correcting the stunned mullet on the come command if he dont know what come is meaning. If he know come is meaning and deciding not to obey because he want to go in opposite direction to have a sniff or chase other dog becuase is better for him to do that instead of obeying handler commanding, then correction is good for consequence of disobey. Dogs learning to trust handler command if corrections done properly becuase you command to save him from correction they learn this. I say come becuase something bad happen if he doesnt he learn that and the dog learn to trust that what you commanding is best for him. Is not always about avoiding the correction when correction is done properly becuase when the correction is done fast and calm with no emotion, the dog is not realising you doing it and it just happening when he dont listen. Then the dog learn to trust your commanding is best you see? Too much correction is done from anger on the handler frustration is wrong and the dog will learning to avoid correction, but this is not how proper correction techniqing should be working. Is even better with Ecollar becuase the dog is at distance from handler so it lessen the conflicting possiblilty even better. Joe

I agree on this point. Is the same as someone saying they great trainer from result of training a great dog easy to train. Joe

Some breeds are easier to train is true and some dogs of the same breed are easier to training also happens. Joe

Um nope not really clearer, but I will go back and read it again, it's been a long day Basically, unless whatever the dog is doing is being reinforced, instead of what you asked him to do(or it puts him in immediate danger), there is not a lot of justification for providing a consequence for non-compliance. If he's just sitting there like a stunned mullet, there is no reason to provide a consequence. Failing to give a reinforcer is not a consequence, it's a "do nothing". There is a school of thought that says we should provide a consequence for disobedience no matter what. I would argue that unless the dog clearly understands that he can avoid the consequence by complying with the cue, then there is no justification for this approach. Given that it's highly likely that the only reason the dog did nothing in response to your cue was that he didn't understand what he had to do, or hadn't been reinforced often enough for it, I would not want to further complicate things by adding extraneous consequences that may only serve to confuse the dog. We can build extremely reliable behaviours without anything more than reinforcement, extinction and response-prevention. See http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/221011-weave-proofing/ for an example. I agree with this with dogs of the right trait for this type of training, but is not reliable on every dog where consequence works better on some traits and cant training every dog best from one training method doesnt work, it depends on the individual dog character what is best working. If a dog having good focus from food and toy drive, this dogs you can training without consequence easy, but dogs with low drive and tunnel vision on the bad behaviour is easier to train from consequence in the training also. Drive is born in the dog, you can build drive to a point but you cant put drive in a dog for handler focus for all distractions when the dog has low drive on the genetics and the training must be suiting the type of dog. Joe

The German Shepherd Dog is working dog and you having look on the breed standards tell you this. The dog must be good for companion animal to protection dog so you buying good Shepherd pup should having the traits for training career in any of this roles and for this to be happening, the dog needing good nerve, courage and the prey drive. The book on the breed standards for Shepherd dog doesnt say he should be show dog and showing should be demonstration of the best Shepherd Dogs who follow breed standards, but they dont doing this and they show for the conformation so what happening is the working traits is not important for the show breeding so they breed for the ribbon which stuff up the breed traits for working dog with no prey drive, no courage and weak nerve is what happens, then someone buying these pups like the Leela17 and has no drive, is hard dog to train and experience to owning this type of dog is not what proper Shepherd Dog is like, so all the good bits for making beautiful smart Shepherd pet dog is missing for my opinion is very sad?. So that is why the Leela17 dog will be having no drive and motivation because is different type of Shepherd Dog from a proper Shepherd which is a working dog. I am not talking on the bloodline here, there is plenty V rated show dog line in Germany having better drive than half the working line dogs here, is about knowing is taking more than male and female mating to produce a good dog on the breeding. Joe

I can understand this looking from a GSD show dog but a working line GSD with high driving dont needing revving up, is instant rev up on drivey dog. Is not unusual for drivey Shepherd dog if he see the tug he go nuts and if hes not controlled properly in the training and you dont give him bite reward he looks for on the tug and tease him, he often try to bite the handler not from aggression but he wants the bite so badly in the rev up, he will bite anything for self reward, your leg, you arm, grab your pants and shake, grab the leash, but dogs like this level on the drive are easy to train in drive on the command and releasing for reward so you use the nuckle head behavior for training advantage. Joe

No, is not good place for dogs like the Bully at the park I agreeing on this point for sure. What I saying for my point, is plenty people thinking is ok for having snarly dog at the park like the Husky and for my opinion snarly dog is no good either in the park becuase they can causing trouble on the growl and posture. Good solid dogs on the park with no reactivity you never having fights. But snarly growl and posturing dogs should not be in the park either because any aggressive response is only steps away from engaging in the fight or causing fight. Joe

Is very good for having interest in the Schutzhund hoping you finding club for training, is hard but nice rewarding and fun. On my interest on the research doing is for finding nice Rottweiler or the Rottweiler has best promise on the Schutzhund job? Is very difficult finding Rottweiler with right drives for the sport compared with Belgian Malinois, or good German Shepherd Dog just interested in the selection of Rotty for this job from the Schutzhund researching? Joe

Hi Leelaa17, I'm sorry to hear that Jenna got attacked. I would stay away from such crazies. If anyone asked me that question, I would get out of the dog park asap. It's not worth putting your dog in such a situation. Thanks very much odiegenie. I appreciate that Lucky she is ok. She's a bit of a sook though and wouldnt leave my side. lol I know. if anyone ever asks me that question again I am going to be out of there so fast they wont even see me leave. Here is good example on the nerve I explaining. Jenna is German Shepherd Dog, but she didn't recover well from fright which is trait in the genes, you couldnt using the Jenna for police dog although she is Shepherd breeding is wrong trait for combat dog. If Jenna was working dog with the social aggression, she would have nailed that dog from pure instinct is the difference on the reactions you see? Is good Jenna is ok Joe

What trait? A "social aggression" trait? I've read a lot of dog personality papers and I've never seen such a trait identified. It wasn't for lack of looking on the researchers' part. People pay a lot of attention to aggression. The thing is, aggressive behaviour is not generally predictive of any personality trait, with the exception of stranger-directed aggression, which specifically relates to human strangers, not dog strangers. So I'm sorry, but I disagree. I do not think the dog has to have a "social aggression" trait in order to react the way it did with such devastating results. When I was a teenager my family had a Whippet cross rescue dog who behaved in a similar manner towards my corgi. The sure sign she was about to attack was a flash of very anxious body language. She was a very soft dog. She just didn't seem to realise there was such thing as ritualised aggression. Instead of reading the paper, would be good experience to ask police dog trainers to observe some training and reacting from dog with people who use the aggression for working and how the different temperaments on the dogs operating then you understand the traits properly and see in your own eyes whats happening. Joe

The dog is unpredictable animal for the stranger approach because you have no idea what the dog is like or if the handler can control the dog. So on my opinion when taking 5 year old kid for walking and the dog approach on the leash, get out of it's way and keep the kid safe instead of rely on the dog handler to do the right thing becuase maybe the handler is not very good on the job we dont know this, so is best for kids sake to make some distance on my belief. If the kids bit on the face from leashed dog is too close to be walking 5 year old near strange dog is stupid. Sure the dog shouldnt be biting and sure the handler should having better control and catching this handler and dog by the police is all beautful, but it doesnt fix the kids face or undo the trauma he suffer, but the relative with the kid if he use is brains could have avoid this situation from a leashed dog in the first place. I see many times people asking handler little Billy want to pat your dog so handler lets the kid pat and is all happy and good, but if something go wrong and dog bites little Billy, his mum will be first to want the dogs euthanasia when it all hitting the fan. We needing to be careful with our dog interact with the kids and for me is better someone think I am not friendly man not letting kid pat my dog than being nice man on minute then terrible man with dangerous dog when my dog perhaps bite him? Joe

I wonder if you noticed that I wasn't attempting to explain the behaviour? I don't think I have enough information to do that. I don't think any of us do. And I don't think it matters. The topic asks whether the owner of the staffy mix should pay for the husky's vet bills. I don't think this is some sort of grey area depending on what kind of aggression was being displayed or what the individual personality of either of the dogs may or may not be. Your dog is your responsibility, and that means everything they do is your responsibility. Like K&P says, it is really quite simple. I think it's a stretch to label the dog as having a "social aggression" trait without knowing much about the dog. A lack of bite inhibition and a readiness to engage in a fight could be attributed to any number of personality elements or learning history. Aggression is, as you note yourself, a complex issue. But taking responsibility for your dog's aggressive behaviour is not. The trait has to be in the dog Corvus, otherwise you could be training any German Shepherd Dog for the police work and teach any one to fight but you cant do this without the personality element already in the dogs genes needed for this to be happening in the teaching and learning. I am doubting this Bully dog was trained to fight dogs, maybe he was who nose?

This Husky what he do on the attack is lay down and squeal, he submit with slow recovery tells us to begin with he has weak nerve soft dog, no question there. Next we have to asking ourselfs why the Husky dog growl for what reason make him growl? Of course the Husky didn't like the bumping from Bully dog, is not domimance reaction remembering he didnt fight back and he try to run away so he growl from fear is weak nerve soft dog. Hard nerve dog dont care if they getting bump and a very hard dog is placid and confident he wont get nasty about anything even if hes life is on the line taking very viscous attack on him to get reaction. Hard nerve dog can recover from bad experience easy, weak nerve dog cant. This dogs who tell off other dogs with the growl begin this mosty from fear and when the jumping dog back off is learning behavior that growling on the bump reduces the fear and insecurity the dog feels, so that is how they deal with the situation. Rude behaviour scares the dog, thats why they react with the growl you see? Hard nerving on the dog dont care about rude behavior because rude behavior doesnt scare them is the point I am saying.

Yes this true of course, it may be owner of the dog not giving enough space for the dog and kid where he had range on the leash to contact we dont knowing the detail is true? My point is noticing of the trend with kids running to the stanger and his dog which is happening to me on the walk more as time passes on where 10 year ago this rarely happening with the kids running to your dog for patting like it does now? Joe

It's easy to assume that because I don't agree with you I am not privy to the information you are privy to, and if I seem reluctant to pay attention to what you're saying that I am not interested in learning what you know. It goes both ways, my friend. What is "normal" for one individual is not necessarily what is "normal" behaviour at the population level. I have no idea what is normal for this dog and why, so all I can do is compare what happened to what I typically see happen in similar situations with different dogs, and what makes evolutionary sense. And that is all I've done. I maintain that the staffy's behaviour was not normal dog behaviour. Whether it was normal for a small subset of dogs or not is not relevant to the point I was making. Aggression is very complex issue and much of the theory is basing on fear aggression which is the most common to see, but findings in the researching on fear aggression is different to other types of aggression, so I say for normal gauging what happens, you cant apply the fear aggression principal on the dog acting on social aggression or fighting drive because is different mindsetting on the dog if you looking for reasoning on the behavior. My point is the Staffy behavior is normal if the dog carry the trait of social aggression is exactly what they do, but what is abnormal at the population level is seeing this behavior unfolding in the fight because not many people taking dogs like this for interacting with other dogs. Many dog behavior like this Staffy dog does is sometimes thinking dog having loose screws in his head or maybe having brain tumor on the diagnose of abnormal in the behavior something wrong with the dog, but if the dog carry the trait for doing this behavior, is nothing wrong with the dog is just this type of dog is not good for safe pet around the other dogs. Joe

This finding to me is very distressing because whos fault here is the bloody relative if the dogs on the leash, should have keep the little boy away from the dog is my opinion. Is very bad how many people think is ok for their kids to run to strange dogs for a pat, this happens to me many times and lucky my wife Labrador is a nice boy and love a pat from the kids, but I having many of my old Shepherd Dogs not liking this giving shuddering up my neck to to think of it? We not knowing what happening here, but is very danger for kids to approach strange dogs and if on the leashing, the dog is not a threat to anyone and should be leaving it alone. Is also bad idea for testing dog with kids unless you very confident of the dogs temperament to accept a pat. I seen this too last weekend a lady letting kid patting her dog when I seeing her dog is wary in the language on his body is insecure, he could easily snap like this and cause an injury to the kid and perhaps the dog be euthanase for the trouble. Is not necessary for dogs to interact with strange kids on the street, very stupid practicing on my opinion. Joe

Beautiful drawings I liking them very much and plenty talent for doing this is excellent work Joe