Yonjuro

LOL, that was me... pawpaw is great for healing but will do nothing for protection. Mushers Secret is used by thousands of husky runners in summer and winter for road, gravel and snow for protection.

She didn't. Apparently if you say anything about a large dog doing something wrong you are a dog hater. You can complain about little dogs all you like though! Thank god, megan! I thought I was losing what few marbles I've got. Especially as the very sensible OP had already acknowledged the strength imbalance when anything goes wrong. That doesn't make anyone anti big dog.... There's such a difference when our tibbie stands on my toe.... & when our relatives' newfoundland does so. That's all the thread was about.... & the OP already knew that. I agree Mita and Megan. Dogmad actually went out of her way to advise and assist a friend of mine with a Rotti x that needed rehoming. Not the actions of someone who is anti breed in my opinion.

here's a link for Mushers Secret, I presume this is the one recommended by TJ. THis is highly regarded by Husky owners. http://waggle.com.au/products/search/index/s/mushers+secret

THanks for the link, it was very interesting.

Nice post.

When you eat do you separate your food groups by digestion rates? No, because I am a true omnivore. The enzymes and acid in my stomach have evolved to process meat and vegies at similar times. Apart from corn that is :laugh: The theory is that raw food digests very fast, but kibble is very slow, there is one school of thought that says the raw will stay too long in the system when combined with the kibble so this can cause the meat to begin fermentation. There are many that follow this rationale. There are also those that don't believe it makes any difference. Regarding the bones think of them as a slow release vitamin, the calcium and other minerals are released over a period of time. If you are feeding vegies they should be steamed and or pureed as dogs don't have the same enzymes we omnivores have, dogs highly acidic guts wont process them like we do. Without this the vegies act more as a filler and roughage. Vegies are part of the BARF model but I am more PREY model so don't take my word for it. I personally don't believe that mixed is going to be better, if you are really worried about making sure you are not depriving the dog of some essential elements, buy a supplement to go with the raw food you can get your dog to eat. Most raw advocates will say that taking the supplements is more for the owners peace of mind rather than a requirement for the dog (assuming you can roughly follow the organ ratios)

I can recommend a fantastic vet but he is in Leederville - dunno if you want to travel that far?

Well thought out post Minyvlz!

this Aussie page is a good one http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

It kind of depends whether you go PREY model or BARF with your raw feeding. I am an advocate of Prey model, but you will have problems if you can't feed offal. Raw mixed with dry is considered a no-no as the foods will digest a different rates. It is okay to feed brekkie in kibble and dinner in raw or vice versa but this is straying from a raw diet. You could try whole fish (non-gutted) and see how you go, something like a herring or whiting to start. But you really need to give a variety of foods to get a balanced diet.

Methinks that people that make mistakes are most likely to blame somebody else. And there's a difference between 'cause' and 'blame'. To improve outcomes in the future.... in respect to potentially preventable things going wrong... it's necessary to tease out what events/decisions caused the problem. Seeking 'causation' has become the correct catch-cry around mistakes/errors in hospitals...so that there's openness in examining factor/factors which led to something going wrong. 'Blame', which is full of emotional overtones of witch-hunts, only leads to temptations to cover things up or total emphasis on punishing someone. Meanwhile the opportunity to learn for the future gets lost. As it's in danger of being lost in this thread. The immediate cause is as T just said... an owner acting, after a phone call with a vet, to give a cat 4 times the dose of a medication recommended. And the causes of something like that happening need to be further teased out. Like, need for highly specific instructions, including warnings about dangers.... from vet to owner. Teasing back further.... the need for debate about the nature of that medication being given to animals. And further back ... the opportunities for emergency vet treatment.... with cost concerns.... in that area. Far more potential for illuminating veterinary emergency treatment .... than running with the notion of 'blame'. Incidentally, the very subject heading for this thread.... is one of 'blame'. A 'cause' heading would say something like.... 'Medication use/dosage linked to cat's death.' Very well said, thank you.

Seems nothing's changed, they're still relatively expensive to feed! :laugh: And certainly not for everyone :) Only those of us crazy enough to enjoy living with dogs who outweigh us, who more often than not come with the added bonus of drool! Ahhhh :) I do love the giant breeds, but I would shudder at what it must cost to feed one. I imagine kibble would be expensive but raw would be astronomical? Hat's off to you and those that can keep these majestic dogs around so people like me can still admire them even when ownership is not feasible. My brother-in-law has a giant breed; an Ovcharka called Vinnie Poo :laugh: he is Russian!

I don't know of this breeders reputation but their name comes up positively in my limited research - they are breeders of Danes and Mastiffs and recommend RAW. They have a forum so maybe they can answer your questions. http://eyotadanesandmastiffs.webs.com/rawdietfaq.htm

I think this post posted here earlier seems to have been missed by some??? The OP HAS contacted the breeder. The OP wants to keep the puppy. The OP has come here for advice on the these issues and where to draw the line regarding the health of the puppy.

You have already contacted the breeder so they are aware of the situation and have offered you assistance by either return, or the spent money towards medical bills. That is a great response from the breeder. Now you just need to see what the vet thinks both short and long term to work out the best course of action. It is entirely possible that the puppy needs only short term specialist care and all will be well. I hope things work out for you and your puppy.

Mini-schnauzer wasn't a breed I had considered previously, but when I finally looked into them, I bought one and had a wonderful 14 years of trouble free life with her. After meeting my dog, my parents bought one and so did two of their friends. They are super cool dogs. I remember my Tessi taking on a pit bull at the park once that jumped up at me trying to get her ball off me. She crouched low, growled and luckily for us the bully decided against a fight. Another amazing thing was when she chased a rat into a pile of rocks. She moved a rock the size of a soccer ball with her head to get at the rat. Luckily the rat escaped. They are much stronger than they look.

sigh... Haredown, did you miss the parts where I recommend the OP doing more research? Which part of "doing research" do you not understand? I have merely pointed out my perspective based on my limited knowledge and experience. There is a misconception that PMR is complicated, this is not normally the case. However, I have conceded numerous times that I don't have experience with giant breeds and their special dietary requirements.

Yonjuro you are obviously very well meaning and you have obviously spent a good deal of time on your post. Growing giant breed puppies is not like growing other puppies; they do have specific requirements. You have one chance to get it right and if you don't get it right things can be disastrous. You may be interested to google Hypertrophic Osteodystrophy for example, or OCD and Panosteitis. It is more indepth than feeding the correct amount of bone, muscle meat and offal, calcium:phosphorous is critical. I know for Great Danes the Royal Canin is considered by many a good choice. As such I would recommend the OP mainly question the breeder as to what to feed the pup. The breeder should be able to explain why the food they recommend is ideal for the puppy and you would expect that they've successfully raised puppies on that food before. Thanks Raineth, What you say makes perfect sense to me. As I said, I don't have experience with Giant breeds and will defer to those with more relevant experience. I will admit I am surprised that RC is considered as a good choice, but am happy to concede that it is good and recommended for these breeds. Thank you, I appreciate your thoughtful response :)

here is a FAQ on Raw http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

@haredown Whippets ...as I said to the OP, do your research, don't take any individual post as having all the answers including (especially) my own. Where have I suggested that PMR is suitable for all size and breeds of dogs? I have also stated it is wise to follow the breeder's recommendation in the beginning. As for the specifics of PMR, look it up yourself, there is plenty of information readily available on the net - in easily digested pieces :) The purpose of my post was to encourage questioning and research. Unlike some, I have no interest in pressing my points and views or arguing.

Have you considered a mini-schnauzer? They are awesome dogs, they don't shed and would be great in an apartment. Super intelligent and robust. I don't know much about standards, but if they are anything like the minis then this might also be an option if you were set on a bigger dog than the mini.

For what its worth... The Prey Model Raw Diet is not rocket science, you need to feed around 80% Meat (muscle), 10% Uncooked bones, 5% Liver and 5% Organs (non-liver) to ensure your dog gets all of the nutrients needed. You don't need to be exact but try to ensure that the ratios are roughly followed over a period of a week. If your dog is working hard then you need to ensure that there is plenty of fat in the meat you feed. After a slight window of normal adjustment you can modify the bone content, ie if stools are too loose add a bit more bone , if too hard, then use a bit less. Chicken is probably the best meat to start with. If you can only get your dog to eat chicken or roo mince then the PMRD is probably not going to be suitable as variety of meats is recommended to ensure the diet is balanced. But this will be totally fine as an occasional meal. Don't feed kibble and meat in the same meal as they will be digested at different rates. Kibble for brekky and meat for dinner or vice versa would be okay. All meat should be frozen for a few days to ensure that any nasties are killed off. Having said that, I don't have experience with giant breeds, I agree that the breeder will be able to offer good advice on what to feed, it would be hard to quantify that the advice is the best possible though. Not all breeders have an in depth knowledge of diets and this is also true of many vets. However, I do think it is wise to follow the breeder's advice for the transition period when the puppy comes to its new home to minimise physical and emotional stress. If going kibble, then try and find one with the largest volume of meat content and the lowest amount of fillers like cornmeal. I would also recommend plenty of external and specific breed research on diets for your new dog. A dedicated breed specific forum will likely have hundreds of posts that will answer exactly what you are asking and will draw from thousands of enthusiasts and experts. I would almost be prepared to bet a weeks wages that Royal Canin, Euk and Hills don't rate highly :) My best recommendation is not to take a single piece of advice (such as this post I am typing) as the way you "must do it". Research the various diets, foods and their pro's and con's and make a decision. A breeder may recommend a particular food based on familiarity, ease of use, cost or a host of other reasons. The breeder recommended food/diet may be the best, based on a certain set of criteria, but there may be better options if you are prepared to do your research.

I wouldn't recommend Royal Canin, Eukanuka or Hills. despite the mass marketing and sponsorships they are generally rated as an average food. They are rated at around 2.5 to 3 stars out of 5 on dogfoodadvisor.com I try and steer clear of dry foods with cornmeal as an ingredient in the top 4 by weight, Dogs get little to no nutritional benefit from corn, but it can make some dogs fart a lot. I try and avoid dry foods with masses of fillers as well. If you look at some of the 4 and 5 star "super premium" dry foods, they often have meat products in the top 4 ingredients by weight. They most often are not much more expensive than the previously mentioned "premium brands" . You generally use less of the super premium foods when feeding as they are more nutrient rich, and at the end of the day cost about the same. The better foods will mean less poo and you will find that the poo outside will turn white in around a week, this can be an indicator that most of the nutrition is being extracted before being pooped out :) I personally would consider a raw diet, and in particular the Prey Model Raw Diet. 100% nutrition, little waste and good white poo when dried. ... it's all in the poo :laugh:

It seems pretty fair and sensible from what I seen the usual via media outlets . Nice result for greyhound owners as well.

They are vets, not psychologists. X 2