espinay2

I find it interesting that the behavior is something considered normal by some for the maremma. While the behaviour is certainly seen in some pyreneans, it is a trait that show and working breeders alike in that breed do not prefer and indeed 'overly shy' is an eliminating fault in the FCI standard. The French behaviour test includes a range of things that test this, but being approached by a judge in that manner is one a Pyr would not be expected to back away from. I note though that 'overly shy' is also in the FCI maremma standard as an eliminating fault. So then what behaviour for the maremma constitutes 'overly shy'? It is interesting to compare different interpretations.

That type of reaction in a working situation would not be good either IMO. Timidity possibly and often likely leading to fear aggression as a reaction (standing off, possibly 'dancing around/shying off' and barking and reacting when pushed) for example - rather than boldness and facing up to a threat, or discriminating when someone or something is not a threat - is not how I would want a LGD to act. I would rather see a dog that is confident, even if wary (not backing off) and not 'giving' of affection etc (watch the reaction of the Pyrenean Shepherd to being handled as a comparison. This is a breed that is also known to be quite wary and standoffish with strangers). Any other Maremma folk out there who can comment?

Mary Roslin Williams of Mansergh Labrador fame who bred many dual titled dogs in her day and worked her dogs extensively in the field as well as in the show ring, wrote about and lamented how changes to field trial competitions brought about changes to the dogs bred specifically for them - with some crossbreeding also taking place to get dogs that were leaner and 'faster'.

Hmm. I would call that more 'shy' than 'standoffish' or reserved ?? Is that type of thing accepted in the Maremma? Certainly we see it from time to time in the Pyrenean, but it is not preferred behaviour and would be marked down in a French club breed temperament test. I note the Maremma was the only LGD breed there to display this type of behaviour.

If you can afford it, a pergola or similar over the runs is likely your best option for shade. Shade is one of the things I struggle with with mine and this is something I plan on building so I have something more permanent. We are in a high wind area though. If you are not, installing shade sails over the runs works fairly well (that is what we do - but the wind is just too much for them at times). Or use silver shade covers which you can get made to order if ready-made ones dont fit. Another thing I would suggest is make sure you take a look at the requirements regarding housing/runs for dog breeders in your State Govt regs. Pays to be sure you are in compliance before you build in case you have to adjust things - easier to do before rather than after.

Lol so it does! Doh! :laugh: Well since we have a central point I think more promotion would be the go to get more people making DOL their first stop when they search? Would be good to get more public exposure to the site. Anyone doing a search on the Internet for puppies of a particular breed for sale will generally find DOL one of the top sites listed. Not really hard to find.

A central point? DOL lists and links all the breed clubs on each of the individual breed pages!

Lida. The website that lists inverted vulva as an issue in my breed based on one 4 month puppy who later grew out of it. And lists many things for my breed never really heard of but misses many that are important ....

IMO there is a big danger that such a site would be huge, confusing and be a phenomenal exercise to try and keep up to date and accurate. Think of the wide expertise that would need to be employed to set up and maintain it. All those breeds and all that specialist info. Keeping it up to date for one breed can be a chalkenge. The reason why most general websites link to specialist ones. Note the Lida website is an Australian site (discussed plenty of times before) contributed to by vets but frankly the info on it is so inaccurate it is not funny. This may be due to reporting quality, the skills and bias if the people running the website or whatever, but I know for my own breed (I have mentioned this previously too - look for the threads or perhaps someone can post a link - I am on my phone) they list things that have never really been heard of in the breed and don't include some that are far more known!! As an example, there is also listed for the breed inverted vulva as being an issue. Now I happen to know that this was the result of reporting by a vet who examined a dog I own who did look slightly inverted when around 4months of age but once grown is not. The website does not tell you any of this though. Is an issue such as this seen in one dog and given without any other statistics or info on the website going to give an accurate picture of the breed?

Had a think about this, and you know I don't think I have ever had a dr ask me about my family history (though I think I did volunteer that info myself once when going to ask about something specific to do with that history.) Otherwise many drs appts have been not much different from most vet appts. You go for a reason and get that treated/done. it would be nice if vets were able to provide that service but in the end they are not much different from your average GP. And unless they have a particular interest in a field they are unlikely to pursue it very deeply. Genetic testing of dogs is rather specialist knowledge for a vet who deals with a range of species and sees a range of dogs both pure and crossbreed and all except those with a keen interest are unlikely to even know some of the breeds they see. They may simply not have time during a busy consult to look up for every patient what tests are recommended for that breed. And may not have that facility available in their consult room to do it there and then. Frankly sometimes itoo it can be hard enough for them to get basic health care messages across. A good idea, but not sure how practical for the general GP vet it would be?

Cash for all breeds and breed specific trophies for specialties :)

Not an Australian site but one that basically does this (and aust breeders etc can use it): http://www.offa.org/ also http://www.upei.ca/~cidd/intro.htm is useful

Agree with you HW that the truth probably lies somehwere in between. But for me this raises a lot of issues and questions, mostly about policy but also practice when it comes to managing these types of situations. Lying was very stupid, I agree there totally. This is not the type of situation to be 'saving peoples feelings' (or avoiding conflict even) through deception. Manage it right, and there would be no need. The practice of shooting dogs as a form of euthanasia, while valid, is IMO these days moving towards being less publically acceptable and IMO it is something that it would be wise for many councils who employ the practice to review. While I fully understand and agree with the need for enforcement, there is also the issue of ensuring that people understand the implications of what they are agreeing to, if they are given a 'choice'. In some cases a 'cooling off period' of some sort may be useful to avoid issues of percieved (or actual) coercion. Enforcement is also often a 'stepped' system and if prior steps have not been managed well, then implementing the 'final step' without proper 'backup' may not be supportable either administratively or morally. This on the surface and taking both sides into account seems to be a case where there are 'missing steps'.

Just the 'pet' names: Halley - named because she was a little ball of lightning with a long tail (named after Halley's Comet). Cookie - She was a Dalmatian so Choc chip! (or smart Cookie or Cookie monster....) Milou - Named after the dog in the Tin Tin cartoon. She is probably the only dog I had a name in mind for before I saw her the rest just 'came to me' Liza-Jane - she came to me from her first foster home as Liza, but she was too blonde for such a strong name. Liza-Jane just 'stuck' (and so did she). Hamish - My OH named him. It went something like this "You can name this one if you like, what do you want to call him?' (me thinking that being a French breed, and him being a French historian I was safe...). Him: "Hamish". Me: Oh....ok....what else do you have in mind?' Him: WHAT IS WRONG WITH HAMISH!. Me: backs away slowly..... Grace - Not the name I had in mind at all, and she originally wasnt even the one I had my eye on, but after deciding she was the one to keep she 'named herself' instantly - after the song 'Pretty Amazing Grace' by Neil Diamond. Playing when Milou left me. Grace is a gift from her. Don't ask me how I know as I can't explain it. Louise - another example of my OH's naming choices. No idea where the name came from. I didn't like it at first, and had decided to call her 'Lulu' in defiance but her name grew on me! She isn't a 'Lulu' at all. Not mine, but best name ever I have heard is 'Taxi'. Try calling that at the dog park :laugh:

Here it is lots of free running. I too have acres -with undulating ground and the dogs do lots of patrolling (walking and trotting) and running mostly in the early morning and evenings. They rest when they want, have bursts of speed and are quite athletic with good muscle. IMO this had helped significantly to keep them free from injury with no general need for chiro etc. In large breeds activity such as repetitive walking, particularly when young (under 2 ) can be damaging to growing bones and joints. It puts stress on growth plates and can potentially lead to issues such as increase in HD. Free running on an undulating surface is generally considered ideal for growing large breed dogs.

If you go to the web page it explains. For the tests they do you 'purchase' them for the dog and they send out the kit. You do the collection and send it back. All generally very easy quick and simple. ATM OFA doesn't require a vet to collect (for the DM one I do anyway and it is not a 'required' test in my breed) but in discussing it with them they have said that you can get the vet to collect and note it on the form. To date I haven't done that. I may look at that more in future given that seems to be the way requirements are going in Australia. Given the major hassle I had before with an Australian DNA testing company though (and what I am reading here too), frankly I trust OFA much more at present to get it right and that is the important thing for me.They certianly have been excellent to deal with to date.

A night on the town, a taxi & a meal costs more than getting your dog desexed. Some people spend more on a pair of shoes than desexing would cost. I don't understand the moaning over a one off expense In the end it is not about cost, but about personal priorities. On this forum I know many of us will find it hard to accept that some people WILL place a bigger priority on a new pair of fashion statement shoes than getting a dog desexed. I know I don't 'get' it, but then there are those that don't understand me sinking tens of thousands of dollars into 'just some dogs' either (and I have a hard time understanding my OH spending similar on radio controlled aircraft :laugh: ) The issue for breeders is choosing as owners those people who will place a high enough priority on their dogs that all its mental and physical needs will be met (and then some if possible). How much is charged is really arbitrary (it certainly is in my breed where costs can vary by several thousand based simply on what the breeder wants to charge) and frankly, if anyone actually added up ALL the costs (not just direct ones - no business prices its products only on direct manufacturing costs) I think most dogs would end up being a 'bargain' in these terms. (It is perhaps a GOOD thing that dog breeding is viewed as a hobby as if all the actual costs needed to be taken into account when charging for puppies, it could in many cases IMO be very scary!). Making a profit on direct costs for one litter is fair enough - but that is not really a true profit any more than your gross pay is what you take home at the end of the day. So back to where we started - it is all about priorities. If you want a particular thing bad enough, you will put your energy and money into getting or doing it. If you don't you go elsewhere and no amount of complaining about the price is going to make a d#$% bit of difference.

Can you add dogs if they don't have a orthopedic test result? I notice your other test results are up there like cardiac. I'd love to have mine on a register like that. Yes, they do all health tests, not just hips and elbows etc. Entering the Australian results is new, and my dogs were used as a test case by OFA for entering the data, as they have had a bit of interest from Australia lately. I did it with the specific purpose of obtaining CHIC certification for my dogs, but it is useful to have all the data 'officially' up there. I note that Saluki isn't listed as part of the CHIC program, though IW and Afghans are - Saluki are listed by OFA in the database though and if you look at some of the entries, some have just things like cardiac etc listed http://www.offa.org/...?page=4#results . Generally you pay a US$25 fee per dog I think for the entry of overseas data (a one off fee fo9r all results including future ones for that dog if I remember correctly but you may want to check that in case I am wrong - mine was a little 'different'....), provide the overseas results and they will enter the data. I do some of my testing through them - patellas and DNA for DM, but most of the ones I have provided to them are AVA hips and elbows, ACES eyes and cardiac certs done here etc. To the OP, being able to view the official health results while at the breeders is IMO reasonable, and if you don't understand what you are seeing, get the breeder to explain it to you. Take your time looking at them if you need to. She is not hiding them from you, just has her reasons for not making copies which in some ways I do understand if she has been burnt before.

I solve it to some extent by having all my dogs results officially recorded by OFA. Anyone can view them if they want. Can't see how that can be misused. For example: http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1466783#animal

I guess that is it. Those that want what you are selling will pay the price. Those that don't, won't. But just like a high priced boutique is not going to appreciate a shopper coming in, raving about how horrible the prices are, trying to haggle and then saying they can get it cheaper elsewhere, we shouldn't expect responsible breeders of purebred dogs to like it when 'shoppers' do the same to them either .....

Yes, it always puzzles me when someone will drop that much or more on the latest iPad or other must have gadget that will be out of date in a year or maybe two, but doesn't think spending that much on a dog they will have for 10 to 15 years is worth it...

There is if you want it to grow and develop properly This is something I don't understand completely that gets thrown around a whole lot. I would be interested in any research which has concluded that desexing at the standard 5-7 month age bracket has adverse effects on growth and skeletal maturity. Article on the most recent study done at UC Davis : http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055937

I get my prog test done at my local vet in the morning and results are back from the lab the same afternoon. Longest I have had to wait is till next morning (first thing - they called me at 8am) when the local machine was broken and it had to go to Sydney. I think I pay about $80 per test or a little less. NO WAY would I be accepting what they are telling you (I wouldn't even accept a 3 day turn around...). Do they really understand the importance of timing for a prog test?? As for the price...

You would need to use an overseas registry and perhaps also contact the MDBA ? I would suggest doing quite a bit of research before you consider breeding. Is your dog of a quality suitable for breeding? (remember that not every dog in a litter is suitable no matter how cute they are - a good breeder can tell the difference). Are you going to be able to import suitable stock given the small genepool? (you may not be able to get a bitch from here, depending on how close the lines in this country are) What genetic/health issues are in the breed that you will need to be aware of and test for? Being such a small dog, are there any reproductive issues? Talking to the overseas breed clubs would be a good start if you haven't already. They should be able to give you good help and advice if you are interested in supporting the future of the breed.

Yes, not doing a necropsy just doesnt make sense.