espinay2

This may help: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2109&aid=856

Overseas books etc will mention it because they use a different system and dogs are not always shown in catalogue order. They are therefore free to 'jostle for position' at a lot of shows and can use that as part of their strategy. Here though dogs are generally shown in catalogue order and changing position is not a 'done thing' as a rule. Though in the past I have heard (rumours) of people changing their names so that they are beginning with A and routinely get front of the line. True or old wives tales I don't know :laugh:

Yes, trying hard not to notice that while gritting teeth! I hear the Leo and Anatolian folk are not too happy - they have been squeezed onto the smaller benches. Should make for a cramped and uncomfortable day for those big dogs.

A lot will depend on the exact reason he is lame and what the recovery time for that is. Rest and gentle exercise usually and massage may help. I wouldn't be doing anything too drastic to get him in the ring. In the end, as disappointing as it may be, if it is the best thing for the dog not to be shown, then that is what needs to be done. Good luck!

Well this is what is frustrating me - in fact at times it is as if we are talking about a different breed altogether. My dogs have beautiful temperaments,they are not dirty nor untouchable. They are wary of strangers however, and would prefer not to be touched or handled by strangers but I believe thats because there has never been a need for me to have them accustomed to this . In my experience with the breed over 22 years they are able to adjust to any lifestyle and any situation as long as the owners have ensured that is what they are exposed to and the dog sees as normal. In my experience what the dog determines is normal is accepted and its as if they have an on and off switch. therefore exposing the dog to a judging type situation from an early age should elicit the required behaviour for it to be approached and handled by a judge in that situation.I would expect when it comes home and goes back to work that it would prefer not to be touched and make that known. For example they will let anyone touch them on my porch because they have worked out that if I allow you on my porch its O.K. to do that - one which works with sheep and which has been in a paddock since she was 6 weeks old will actually go after a pat and want visitors to touch her. But she would never accept that as easily when she is in the paddock with her sheep. She is a brilliant worker and has never ever, lost a lamb or sheep to foxes which are as thick as thieves around here. So I'm leaning toward an opinion that if you are going to show them and require them to cope with that then it should be a simple case of exposing them to it and the type of situations it will need to consider normal when its on lead. I dont think that being wary of strangers means impossible in all situations for a Maremma to be handled or examined. My concern is that some comments seem to attack Tralee personally and that takes the discussion out of my comfort zone. And this is basically what we have been saying IMO. No one expects them to be golden retrievers. But as you state that with exposure they can be conditioned to the show ring and there is a difference between a dog that is naturally wary as part of its breed makeup and one that is overly shy etc. I have raised questions on the Italian TMC for example and received no feedback on that and how the style of handling differs from what Australian judges are doing. I think many are just concerned (and frustrated by the lack of direct reply) that what is being expected of judges in this instance is not something that should be expected or even needed for the correct judging of the breed?

Banging my head on that suggestion given that military working dogs (explosive detection dogs etc) need to be anything BUT dog or people aggressive .....

Yes I really haven't seen much of anything for Canberra Royal. But it seems on a par with previous years unfortunately. Disappointing.

My main vet is not in Canberra, but I have never had a bad experience with a vet in Canberra whenever over the years I have needed to consult with one there for various reasons. I should add that there have been some that philosophically we did not necessarily see eye to eye, but this doesn't mean the experience was 'bad' just that I sought a vet I could work better with. I too would question the reason for the request. It doesn't seem to be a validated research requirement? (the issues that come with collection of data for research purposes have already been raised by others). Not very balanced research if only bad experiences are being sought.More like dirt digging.

Yep, always the first question to be asked. I have heard that plenty of times over the years (both first and second hand) when owners don't think the dog is 'working' as they don't always see it doing anything. But if no stock is getting lost, regardless of what the dog 'seems' to be doing, it is doing its job. As for judges being 'breed experts' - ditto what others have said. Every person of every breed would love that. But that is not what all breeds shows or judging are about and as much as we would like them to be, no judge is going to be an expert on every dog in even one group, let alone if they judge more than one. You either watch the shedules and enter under those that are when you can (we will travel good distances for those shows) or that is what breed specialties are for. And yes, different specialist judges will have different preferences too.

1. This it really an individual thing to be discussed with the breeder and different people will make different arrangements. As mentioned though, with a pup potential just means it looks good at the time but time will tell and not all live up to early expectations. You take the risk with a pup and hope for the best. 2. Again an individual thing. In general though breeders tend to be more comfortable placing main register males with a novice. The more a breeder knows you the better your chances of them trusting you with their dogs. 3. The first show dog of my breed was after owning one as a pet and showing a dog of a different breed. My first show dog though was after owning a pet (of a different breed), but training in obedience with that dog and getting to know a lot of breeders and show people. I got to know the breeder well before the litter I got my first show puppy from and the breeder became a good friend and mentor. 4. I started talking to breeders way before I wanted a puppy. They became friends first. And I have been prepared to wait for the right pup. In one case I waited 2 years. In other cases opportunities sometime just happen if you have put the groundwork in and are a 'known entity'. The better a breeder knows you the more confident they will be placing a good dog with you. And you may actually be considered as a home for a 'better' one than you might have otherwise.)

True, but that's not the issue. An exhibitor is going to take a suitable dog to present at a Show. In the past, a small number of judges have not, IMO, been fair in their comportment around my dogs. Some have been blatantly deliberate and others ignorantly innocent. But neither should be excusable. It has happened in the past and is more than likely to happen in the future. It happened at Crufts for cries sakes. I would want my dogs to be dogs first, companions second, show dogs third and breeders last of all. I simply do not want the order changed for the convenience of some overbearing Judge, Dog Club or Canine Council. So how is the way the judges are behaving different from how the judges behaved in the videos of the Italian TMC I posted?

When it comes to selecting suitable breeding stock it is VERY important to discriminate and even 'condemn'. I am thinking the Italians would be the first to say it too?

A dog doesn't have to greet everyone with a waggly tail to be shown. There are MANY breeds which have a reserved nature in the ring. But aggression or being overly shy are out. And there is a BIG difference between the two.

It is up to the breeder then to be sure that they maintain temperament suitable for work. At the same time though it is important to make sure that they are preserving the 'right' temperament for the breed. Which as I understand it is one of the reasons the Italian club has introduced the TMC test (as a requirement for the title of Italian Champion I beleive). The importance of good temperament was again brought back to me today at the show I was at when a family was explaining rather sadly to me that they used to have a Maremma on their small farm, but had to have it put down after continuing issues with hyper responsiveness (my word for what they were describing) as it attacked and caused injury to their son when friends came to visit (from their explanation of events possibly a case of redirected aggression). Sadly this is not the first time I have heard similar stories. If Italy is held in such high esteeem (I do understand that as Pyr folk tend to look to France - but understand that they are not perfect and have their own share of issues - something they themselves recognise), maybe Maremma owners and breeders here could arrange for the TMC to be conducted for their own dogs?

Zoiboy I get what you are saying 100%. It is VERY important to understand the difference and distinguish between fear/hyper responsiveness/aggression and correct working temperament. They are not the same thing. In fact a dog that is hyper responsive, acts out of fear or is quick to jump to aggression is showing traits that can in some cases be a disadvantage in a working situation. These types of dogs can often be less adaptive and less able to cope with change. They may also be less able to discriminate and can 'act out' more. Not sure about Maremma, but certainly with the Pyrs you will see a VERY different dog off property to on as well. Off territory is off duty. They will 'switch on' when necessary certainly, but otherwise they are relaxed and may present a very different and somewhat skewed view of what they are like at home on the job. At home it is straight into work mode. For example, last night the foxes were quite active. The dogs were busy outside patrolling and barking and keeping things safe. My 10 month old bitch was out there working with them. At 4am she is barking up a storm out in the paddock and keeping 'her' chickens safe. At 10am though she is at a show and enjoying saying hi to people who stop to chat. She switches from one role to the other very easily.

The Maremma will allow itself to be handled, but it has to be on its terms. This is particularly acute when dogs (males) are puppies. A Maremma owner should be astute enough to understand that some shows will have to be withdrawn from, the dogs will sometimes need to be slowly accustomed to being shown. But judges should not be trying to condemn a dog in order to quickly eliminate it. Judges should be facilitating, assisiting and developing dogs with their exhibitors, but then those dogs simply just don't get Group, BOB, Class or whatever. We're not stupid you know. The judge is there to judge, not to train. Training for the show ring happens mostly outside the ring. To be comfortable in the ring the dog has to be made accustomed to being handled in general. Careful management of young dogs through their fear periods (and yes sometimes not entering them for a time when in a fear period) is not confined to maremma or even LGD. The show ring is not about 'tricks' but even just for the dogs sake, putting the work in beforehand so that it is comfortable with what it is being asked to do is a good idea. And it helps you to display the dog in a better way. Frankly I don't think I have ever come across a judge that works to condemn or eliminate. Judges do have a wide variety of styles and mannerisms but they are there to do a job too. I didn't see the highly respected Itslian judge in the second video I posted being overly cautious in approaching the dog and he seemed to handle it in a manner not dissimilar (and actually in many cases more abruptly) than many judges here.

It is a state by state thing. In NSW it comes under Section 9 of the Animal Welfare Code of Practice for Breeding Dogs and Cats http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/299803/Breeding-dogs-and-cats-code-of-practice.pdf This seems to be the SA govt organisation responsible: http://www.dogandcatboard.com.au/ But not sure there is anything relating to breeding on it.

Some of the TMC test in Italy:

I do agree that different dogs require different approaches and an LGD (and many other breeds - saluki and Belgian shepherds spring to mind) should not be expected to act like a lab or golden retriever when approached. The way some judges approach and handle dogs too does leave something to be desired (there are some judges I would never enter a puppy under for example). At the same time though we need to be hyper aware of where to draw the line and IMO in some cases there is a danger of excusing issues with temperament when they are confused with 'how the breed is'. I note that the Italian maremma club has been addressing temperament as an issue (see the attachment in my previous post ) and while it doesn't address the specific issues it would be interesting to know what that club considers they are. The character test used by the club btw looks very similar to the test de comportment used by the French Pyr club. It was interesting to see the test being conducted over there and what was tolerated and what wasn't. While waryness and alertness was and was expected, backing up in the manner shown in the crufts video, with that(albeit different) LGDbreed was marked down in the gradings.

Ooh! More video's please Keshwar if you are able? Need to see if I take any of my own advice! :laugh: The last one you took was a BIG help!

You are possibly seeing some of the results of breeding specifically for 'modern' field trials that MRW lamented about ;-).

Thanks for that info - just looked them up on wikipedia - boy they are so similar to Pyrs - that's going to cause some confusion in the group 6 ring I would think. Cheers Similar but different in some important ways. Just as the Pyr is different to the Pyr Mastiff, is different to the Maremma is different to the Kuvasz etc. They have been put in Group 6. Standard is here: http://www.ankc.org.au/Breed_Details.aspx?bid=240

Confidence and attitude. I am DEFINITELY a work in progress :laugh: I had a lightbulb moment not long ago. I realised that if I was going to win, I had to go into the ring as if I 'deserved' to win. For me that started by dressing to win and for the first time in probably forever, I wore a skirt in the ring (new spiffy show suit). It was more about attitude than what I was wearing IMO, but making the extra effort with my own appearance helped psych me into a better frame of mind and attitude. And wouldn't you know it, the very first time I did It I cracked RUBIG!!! (and followed up with a BIG not long after ). Now THAT was an eye opener for me and confirmed that I really have to work on myself and what I do - how I present the dogs - so I can do them justice. Next step is to work on 'stillness' - watching video of myself I have realised I am a mega fussy fiddler. And that sort of energy doesn't do the dogs any favours and frankly looks awful. One thing I notice from watching 'good' handlers is that element of confident stillness and precision. Any movement on their part is economical. They don't fuss with the dog and they dont rush the dog. So that is next on my list of things to work on.

From the FCI Regulations: ( http://www.fci.be/ci...10-annex-en.pdf ) " CANNOT BE JUDGED . This rating is to be given to any dog which does not move, constantly jumps up and down on its handler or tries to get out of the ring, makes it impossible to assess the gait and the movement or avoids constantly to be examined by the judge and makes it impossible to inspect teeth, anatomy and structure, tail or testicles." This is the Temperament Test used by the Maremma Club (CPMA) in Italy (note it is translated by google so some of the wording goes a little strange): TMC - Test Morphological Character This is interesting: http://www.cpma.it/userfiles/Relazione%201'Meeting%20Internazionale%20english%20version%20FINALE.pdf (wierd that link wont work for me once loaded so doc now attached) Maremma International Meeting.pdf

The Tatra is newly approved. Easiest way to describe it is Similar to other European white livestock guardians though on the smaller side as a rule. From Poland. Don't think one will be entered (there may only be one in aust at present??), but you never know!!