Amax-1

Is it perhaps a prey driven reactivity?.......she's a Border Collie, high drive dog? Justice is much more reactive with running dogs too but I wouldn't say he has a high prey drive by any means. I think for him at least, it's more to do with a fast moving dog feeling more unpredictable as he has far less time to assess the situation and get comfortable, compared with a dog that is standing still or walking along at a normal pace. The dogs that have attacked or tried to attack him in public have all started by running straight at him too, which probably doesn't help. Yes, moving dogs would trigger a defensive action quickly if he's been attacked like that for sure. Attacks on a dog who is already reactive doesn't help in the training process teaching the dog that other dogs are not a real threat. The first Belgian Malinois I had some involvement with in his training was like your girl and what he would do if he wasn't in focus with you at the time something else was moving, he would be after it before you had time to change his focus. He had super focus when he was in focus, you could heel him through a heard of elephants, you could hold him in a long down on the footpath with people walking around him even dogs approaching him when in handler focus he was ok, but when relaxed, he would catch you off guard and go nuts over something, so you either had to focus him all the time which was impractical or have him on leash, you could never trust him off leash in a relaxed state, some thing would catch his eye and was gone after it aggressively.....he was handful and a half. My GSD was like an old draught horse in comparison where I once thought he was fast and drivey :laugh:

Training and handling operational and apprehension dogs, control is critical, not only aside from the paperwork and facing the music if dog and handler stuffs up, there is a danger aspect as the dogs are trained to bite people so handler control extends beyond a nice obedience performance or causal loose leash walk and the dogs ability to focus on the handler is the essence to achieving a high level of control. if you call a dog off a deployment for instance, the return is where the reward and praise is at so the dog learns that getting called off a deployment is an awesome opportunity to have fun with the handler. Without that control and the high drive level the dog is at to apprehend someone, you can't stop them easily. On a note of danger if the dog is deployed and someone else comes into the frame could even be a child appearing into the dogs path, the dog MUST immediately abort on command and return to the handler, so all theses focus games adds to the reliability of the dog in the final product and using these focus games with a pet dog makes a fantastic well controlled pet you can technically throw your leash away in the end, just depends upon how much control you want to train for. :)

Harnesses are being marketed as anti pulling devices so people who's dogs are pullers on leash buy them in hope to lessen their dog's pulling. There are also a crop of trainers recommending them which I have also noticed more dogs in the community with harnesses pulling their owners around in them. Seems the stronger the dog the more interest in harnesses of late? There is catch to this also. Some dogs will find a harness restrictive or aversive which can lower the drive to pull by suppressing their enthusiasm and that's a bad thing from a training aspect when a constant restriction/aversive that can't be switched off when the right behaviour is achieved, the dog then becomes equipment wise......haltis/head collars are good for that, dog's perfect with the halti on, take it off and the dog is all over the place again in it's original behaviour. Any aversive used as a training tool must have the capability to switch on and off in accordance with the exhibited behaviour. .That's their best use so the dog can power into the harness without drive loss from the corrective action of a neck collar.

It's best not to correct as handler punishment, that's why before the dog reaches the end of the leash turn around quickly and walk in the opposite direction and let her self correct and say nothing. When she turns around to follow after the correction, say "here" excitedly and ramp her up yippee who hooo!!! and make her excited to come to you and reward that, make it a game to catch up to you so she thinks it's fun and rewarding. That builds handler focus by elevating drive and makes the handler much more fun than darting off for a sniff. The correction interrupts the drive to go sniffing and the reward creates the fun. Couple the two together and the dog learns to focus and be aware of where you are heading. The dog doesn't fear or avoid correction, they think it's a game of catching them out on direction change without them paying attention. Also, when you turn around and the dog turns and you call "here" excitedly and reward when she catches up, that reinforces the "here" command so in time, the "here" command has real meaning and eventually the dog can be sniffing and you command "here" and the dog will shoot back to you as fast as she used to dart off and sniff. You can stand still until she realises that unless she backs it up, you are not moving forward, but that's boring so the dog's response will be suppressed......if you ramp her up in drive, she will turn back to you much faster with greater enthusiasm to be rewarded. :) Thanks for explaining that, the turning around method makes more sense now :) We have obedience tomorrow, not sure how that's going to go as she is usually a bit pully but I'll get there early and settle her down. In the class she's fine it's just walking around the grounds before and sometimes after which can be bad. At least everybody there can relate to me acting like a crazy dog lady! She's overwhelmed with excitement and distraction which is pretty normal for a young dog and they tend to do that, so building handler focus will reduce that tendency making yourself more exciting and desirable than the environment. Dogs who like toys and balls for reward are a bit easier to focus in distractions than food driven dogs....toy reward is something else to try if she likes that :)

Is it perhaps a prey driven reactivity?.......she's a Border Collie, high drive dog?

It's best not to correct as handler punishment, that's why before the dog reaches the end of the leash turn around quickly and walk in the opposite direction and let her self correct and say nothing. When she turns around to follow after the correction, say "here" excitedly and ramp her up yippee who hooo!!! and make her excited to come to you and reward that, make it a game to catch up to you so she thinks it's fun and rewarding. That builds handler focus by elevating drive and makes the handler much more fun than darting off for a sniff. The correction interrupts the drive to go sniffing and the reward creates the fun. Couple the two together and the dog learns to focus and be aware of where you are heading. The dog doesn't fear or avoid correction, they think it's a game of catching them out on direction change without them paying attention. Also, when you turn around and the dog turns and you call "here" excitedly and reward when she catches up, that reinforces the "here" command so in time, the "here" command has real meaning and eventually the dog can be sniffing and you command "here" and the dog will shoot back to you as fast as she used to dart off and sniff. You can stand still until she realises that unless she backs it up, you are not moving forward, but that's boring so the dog's response will be suppressed......if you ramp her up in drive, she will turn back to you much faster with greater enthusiasm to be rewarded. :)

Harnesses are good for two things, exercising a dog with a neck injury and training a dog to pull harder on the leash. Marketing of harnesses around gaining better control of a dog and eliminate pulling is about selling harnesses not training dogs. The best anti pulling device is a prong collar and the best of all is good training which can actually be done without a leash at all :)

The are quite a few trainers and especially training classes that won't deal with reactivity and makes it very hard sometimes for owners of reactive dogs to seek appropriate support. Many will belittle the owner implying that their dogs reactivity is caused by improper raising and handling where in fact it's usually the dogs default behaviour genetically when under stress, nothing really to do with the owner at all. One consolation when mastering a reactive dog, you will be a better trainer/handler than the trainer who wrote you off That makes sense as the focus intensity wouldn't be as strong on the other dog with his focus split between yourself and the trainer so it would reduce the threshold distance. What's he like if a dog walker is approaching on the footpath?. That's usually the worse encounter especially if you have little escape path to maintain threshold distance.....then of course handler stress, "shit, here comes another dog and mine is going to light up on this dog approaching", the dog senses the handler stress and makes the likelihood of reactivity worse.....all in the stride of exercising a reactive dog!

Yes you can indeed and easily for an experienced handler/trainer, but personally I wouldn't teach that to an owner struggling with a darting sniffer to complicate matters further. Once the preferred behaviour is attained and the dog has adequate handler focus then by all means a controlled sniff can be implemented.

What I have established over the years is once you can reduce the reactivity distance down to close proximity with another dog by any means you achieve that, the dog learns to relax when realising nothing untoward happens in close proximity to another dog. It's notable when achieving good progress and the dog is subject to a bad encounter with another dog, perhaps another reactive or over boisterous dog, it sets the progress back quickly, I guess the idea in the training process where it works well with close proximity to calm dogs. I am not sure that rewarding calm is what's happening and think calm is a state the dog chooses with increased exposure to other dogs without a drama occurring to trigger their previous reactivity. Social aggression is also another cause of reactivity which is a dominant reactivity towards a strange dog who doesn't belong in the pack......that's not a fear reaction but more an extension of territorial aggression. Socially aggressive dogs usually posture and growl a lot on dogs they know or first greetings with another dog will be putting it's head over the dog's shoulder and growling wanting the other dog to submit to their assumed hierarchy. Some little dogs can be socially aggressive and want to dominate big dogs. They don't realise that one chomp from the big dog and they are dead, but they will start a fight with a big dog if the big dog doesn't submit.

What are you hoping to achieve with a harness out of interest? I'm not really trying to achieve anything in regards to walking, both walk ok on a lead. They seem to look more comfortable and are easier to connect to a car restraint. All the suggestions have been great. Now to pick one. Ok, thanks :)

The dog has no reason to focus on the handler that's why she darts around sniffing and misbehaves in distractive environments. This is pretty normal behaviour or it's a common and predictable behaviour that unless a dog is trained not to dart around sniffing, pulling on the leash and digging their heels in to keep on sniffing from a puppy, the behaviour from adolescence onwards gets worse and more frustrating. When they are trained in handler focus from puppyhood, they don't exhibit these behaviours to deal with in adolescence, but of course we only learn this from experience of raising many dogs, so when we do end up with an adolescent sniffer darting all over place on leash, the fastest way I have ever found to extinguish the behaviour is the change of direction self correction process reinforced with reward for maintaining focus on where the handler is going. Once the dog has a reason to focus on the handler, the environment doesn't matter and the dog will respond the same in practically all environments and distractions. With sniffers in the training process, you can't relax on it and whilst training their is NO sniffing whatsoever as allowing one pull and sniff until the dog is proofed will undo the progress made :)

What are you hoping to achieve with a harness out of interest?

Nathan Williams is Australia's leading dog psychologist and dog behaviour specialist apparently

He's actually being rewarded for looking at you......I don't see how they determine the calm behaviour which is the previous action before looking at you relates to the reward from the dog's perspective? It's more the teaching of a new response when in face of another dog and because of that, the reactivity is suppressed in the process as a by-product?

It depends how the correction is used whether it be a punisher applied by the handler for non compliance with a command or used as a behaviour interrupter as to how the dog associates with the correction. Punisher as in "cop this correction for disobedience or being naughty" or correction used as an interrupter from the dog making the wrong choice are two different things in the dog's mindset.

You on the right track.....what I do is build more handler focus by changing direction, when she surges ahead, before she hits the end of the leash, turn around and walk briskly in the opposite direction and let her self correct, when she catches up make it fun and praise her for catching up and give her a treat......don't let her pull against the leash, turn around before she hits the end of it and what happens is the dog thinks it's a game. The correction is NOT a punisher, it's a "hey, we are going this way" but along with praise and treats for the right behaviour, you have a double reinforcer. If the dog values toys more than food, use a toy or ball as a reward for maintaining composure :) Tell her you just bought a prong collar and she will hate you with a passion :laugh:

Correct, you are spot on there Theories are ok and have their place, but many in dog training are purposely implemented to sell training packages, so we can only apply theories as they apply to own dogs.

I agree hankdog. I think it's also important when making statements, such as A-max's that if a dog sees another across the street and, given the chance, would rush over and attack, that this is therefore confident aggression and not anxiety or fear, to take in to account that each dog is different. Each dog has a different distance requirement that keeps them under threshold and some may not feel threatened and afraid until a dog is two metres from them, while others may feel threatened at 20 metres or 100 metres. If the dog's fear response is fight (whether due to past experience or being restrained from flight by a leash), I would think that response would kick in at whatever distance puts the dog over threshold, meaning that just because a dog is across the road going ballistic and wanting to chase the other dog off, it doesn't automatically mean the dog is a confident aggressor. When I first started working with Justice he would go over threshold and kick in to fight mode if another dog was on the other side of the road but he wasn't confident and it would have been a huge mistake to have treated him as anything other than fearful and anxious. Over time he increased his threshold so that he could have a dog walk past him a metre away without reacting and eventually got as far as his response consisting of a sniff and then walking away, or moving behind me, when strange dogs ran up to him in public. Hopefully we'll get back to that point again but at no time was he ever confident in his aggressive displays. I think you need to be very careful giving advice to owners of reactive dogs that suggests their dogs should be treated as anything other than fearful and anxious, without an in person assessment done by an excellent behaviourist. The consequences of someone acting on that with a fearful dog could be very damaging. There a two behaviour components in a dog attack, the trigger and the reaction. The trigger is fear and the reaction is active aggression and only a dog confident enough to win a fight will react in active aggression when a flight path exists. The further a dog will chase another dog to mount an attack, the more confidence the dog has it's ability to win the fight. Dogs lacking in confidence to win the fight are not brave enough to test their luck over any great distance. Dog aggression is exactly the same in principal as old school trained protection dogs in defence drive but in reverse in terms of the rehabilitation/training process of the behaviours. I actually haven't provided any advice only discussed behaviour elements basically

Yes, aggression can manifest in fearful dogs from scary experiences with no flight path but depending on the individual dog, they can also shut down and anything else in between so there is really not much point in trying to establish what's caused the reactivity in a time that can never be confirmed as to what did happen, and often nothing happened at all and the dog is just reactive, doesn't like other dogs. I think most importantly is to establish the behaviour of what the dog is displaying now as it's being assessed for a training plan based on the mindset of the dog you are seeing when in a reactive state. When the dog's mindset is mis-read by a behaviourist and the wrong training approach applied in rehabilitation, it either makes the reactivity worse and more unpredictable, causes a shutdown or doesn't really fix the problem other than minor suppression of the reactive behaviour.

I doubt these dogs were trained to attack. If they were trained dogs both would call off on command. Sorry, my wording was not great. I meant to guard, not 'attack'. Dogs should not be trained to act aggressively IMO. In most jurisdictions if not all, it's illegal to train pet dogs to bite/attack/ or act aggressively towards people or other animals, yet it's quite legal to breed and keep dogs high in civil and territorial drive which are untrained and otherwise uncontrollable. the most dangerous version is quite ok, but the safest trained version is not ok......hardly sensible is it?

Yes, that's how it begins in many fearful dogs, the target they are insecure about retreats from an act of aggression then by learned behaviour, the once fearful dog transitions into a confident aggressor/attacker, but when rehabilitating a dog in training, it's the state of reactivity the dog displays is what's best addressed I have found more so than the dog's state when the behaviour first commenced. Sometimes if this makes sense: A behaviourist will piece together from the owners account of how their dog became chronically reactive towards other dogs and determine that the reactivity is fear based and they are correct, it's exactly where it all began, but it's transitioned into confident active aggression over time, so the treatment or training process needs to be compiled around a confident aggressor which is what the dog is now on the leash before them, not compile a training plan around what the dog was initially when the reactivity began. As we know, dog aggression elevates, gets worse as the aggressor gains confidence and before long they would attempt to take down a grizzly bear so to speak. A fear biter can transition into a dog that he/she thinks of themselves as being pretty tough to the point they can look for fights and enjoy the challenge That's good he was still clear headed enough to hear the clicker so he was still within a workable zone and hadn't blown over the threshold or what we often say "lost the plot".....so there is still some good behaviour left in Justice to be gained in command compliance it seems which is great progress. People who have never had a reactive dog to deal with don't realise the infinite timing of events in training and management involved in achieving sometimes only marginal success. As I mentioned previously, as a handler/trainer mastering a reactive dog which are not easy projects provides great enhancement of a person's overall training skills in general :)

Anxious and phobic dogs will run away is their first option, they don't react unless there is no escape path and they most certainly don't react in forward motion in active aggression. Anxious dogs will react to other dogs in close proximity so they tend to bite another dog when face to face or when a another dogs overwhelms them physically with no escape path. Dogs who react at another dog on the other side of the road at a distance giving the impression that if you dropped the leash, your dog would chase the other dog and attack it, is not an anxious phobic dog and both conditions require different training approaches, so one condition is a phobic type anxious fear aggression state, and the other is an active aggression state. Active aggression is a state where a dog perceives threat usually from weak nerves if the dog reacts to non threats, but the dog has courage and commitment to fight is a different mindset to a cornered fearful dog lashing out, so training of reactive behaviours depends a lot on the type of reactivity the dog is displaying but you certainly can in most cases dramatically improve reactive behaviour with good obedience training as the foundation to the rehabilitation process.

A dog over threshold really means the dog is too over stimulated in the moment to respond to known commands and what we see from a reactive dog is that he/she has lost the plot and reverted back to the default behaviour, barking, lunging etc for which we have no verbal control over the dog to interrupt the behaviour and re-gain the dog's composure. Yes I did read all of your post and the dog did compose when using the clicker which means the clicker is being used as a lure and the message the dog is learning in the training process is that he shall respond to the click sound and not handler command. The dog ideally should associate the click with displaying the right behaviour as commanded by the handler as in "handler commands, dog obeys, click for obeying followed by a reward". In the circumstances, the dog was actually rewarded for blowing over threshold and reacting by luring with the clicker. I know these moments are difficult and you have to make a call and the bottom line was you did re-compose the dog and diffuse the reactivity, so well done as any ability to defuse a reactive dog is good and moving in the right direction. From what you explained of the situation, the clicker is working more as a lure in the way the dog sees it, like he is relating the click as meaning he gets a reward but he's not understanding what the reward is for, what he did right to hear the click. Sometimes it's hard to tell if a dog sees the clicker as a reward lure or a marker for the right behaviour. I think Justice may be seeing the clicker as a reward lure more so than realising the click was actually for displaying the right behaviour you are seeking from him? What you can also do, is train him for "work mode" where he MUST obey everything then a relaxed mode when the work is done, so you can train little sections of a walk where he must focus, no sniffing etc, then release him to relaxed mode where he can do what he likes. You can train a working mode commanding "ready" meaning for the next few minutes he must focus and obey then command "done" meaning he can relax. As painful as it is to manage a reactive dog, they are worth their weight in gold to own one just once as they make you become a great dog trainer by the time you have mastered them. They teach you in 5 years what would normally take 20+ years of knowledge gained in dog behaviour :) :) Unless you use aversion not as a punisher but used to change the behaviour, it is difficult to train around a dog in "sticky" mode. The greatest "un-sticker" of all times is the dreaded electric collar and in working dog situations and especially with herding breeds is why they use electric collars in the training process otherwise without it, the dog washes out and doesn't certify in that working role :) Commonly called "clear headed" dogs is a term given to dogs more genetically resistant to reaching "sticky mode" which serious and professional working dog trainers will seek in the parentage of a prospective working litter.

I doubt these dogs were trained to attack. If they were trained dogs both would call off on command. The dogs were obviously just mutts with territorial drive. Trained protection dogs are not cheap and takes a lot of owner/handler input in the training process to control them safely that not many average people will spare the time or the money involved. We need to be mindful of the fact that no laws prevent anyone keeping a dog dangerous to humans and until the dog is declared dangerous which can only result from complaint, the dog is regarded as a compliant. The council said apparently no reports had been received previously about these dogs. Not sure how long they had these dogs, but prior to the attacks it didn't seem that the neighbours had a problem with them?