Cosmolo

Laffi- it depends on what you believe you will get out of the course. As this was going to be my career it was easy to justify to myself, especially after spending substantially more at univeristy for something i hated! I would ask yourself why you really want to do the course. I agree that it is alot of money for an interest/ hobby course and can see why you'd ask the question. It has different values for different people- i would have paid almost anything to do it because of what i wanted out of it. I made sure i got my money's worth as well with all the hours etc that i did!!

CTD do you have any videos of the training you did with the weavers?

LP- while i stand there and shake my head, the handlers are told either to not do the exercise again or i've seen them set it up the same way at times. Sme handlers correct their dogs when they finally catch them :D and there is usually always multiple dogs because when one dog breaks, it sends a chain reaction down the line. LP- i totally agree with you about a more practical exercise- but i don't believe it will ever happen..

Hope everything works out okay for your dog/s WADT. I find what you do fascinating- i think dogs noses can be put to so many uses that we haven't even considered yet! I was on a real high- i couldn't believe how easily she switched on- found everything no problem. I get more excited now because i remember how difficult she was as a puppy, so everything seems sooo much easier now! Doing scent detection with a 12 week old pup (passed her assessment at about 6 months) was not easy!

Good points raised regarding the level of the dogs being entered. It never ceases to amaze me when i am at training, how many dogs do a runner during stay exercises and the biggest problem is that in training- the owners still aren't in a good position to correct the behaviour. At my club- they set it up exactly as they would at a trial, with handlers at a distance having to hope that the dog doesn't break, and when they do, no one can do anything about it except to try to retrieve their dog who is running around disturbing everyone else and potentially engaging with a fearful or aggressive dog who was on lead minding their own business. The training needs to be addressed before these dogs even get into a trial.

Lp, let me try and answer your questions.. If you give a dog a correction and the dog truly does not know the exercise, its highly unlikely that the dog will comply. It would be like if i walked up to Cosmo, said "Carrot" (wanting her to stand) and then corrected her- she wouldn't respond with a stand and would likely try something that she does know- a sit or drop for instance. If however she did understand the command but did not comply, a correction should result in compliance and the offering of a stand. Disobedience is not when you change a command or signal and produce one that the dog has never seen before. New picture, new exercise. When my dog is in prey drive i don't believe that they cannot hear me, i believe that their ability to hear me is impaired. If they absoultely could not hear me, i would not be able to call my dog off something when they are not facing me and in full drive. The dog can hear you IMO but has decreased sensitivity to your voice and as a result, chooses to continue chasing. This to me is disobedience when it is a known command and i have set up and trained the situation successfuly before. I agree with you that the dog doesn't plan on being disobedient. I tell my clients that the dog has more of an attitude of 'what happens if i do this'.. unless they are carrying out an instinctual behaviour in which case they know the outcome will be appetitive. Disobedience to me is non compliance with a known command in a situation that the dog has encountered before. tollersowned- if you had ruled out stress and confusion- possible displacement behaviour, then yes i would consider that disobedience.

This is an interesting discussion. Thanks for that explanation WA dingo trainer- can i ask how often you are asked to find toads? Do you get called out f people think they have spotted one or do you routinely need to search certain areas/ things? Just out of curiousity, Clicking Mad- do you train scent detection for a particular purpose or just for fun? I was very proud of my girl the other day, we did our first session in one of her favourite parks which i thought would make it quite difficult for me to switch her on. I shouldn't have worried- she was even better out than she is at home and found her last target hidden in a clump of very dense bush!! There were distractions of dogs and children around and she couldn't have cared less- she was as easy to switch on as she is at agility- and thats saying something!! Clever little Cosmo dog..

Agree PF- my dog, my responsibility. LP- i am still a little confused by what you mean?? That you wouldn't ask your dog to do anything? In turn relying on them to 'do the right thing' while you deal with the other dog? Maybe a practical example will help us to explain better. A dog approaches mine and i am uncomfortable with this dog saying hello to mine. I would be likely to go over and while i deal with the other dog and remove it, put my dog in a drop rather than take the chance that my dog will follow me or not deal with the situation appropriately. What would you do in that situation? Drop for me is 'stay there and i'll look after it for you', which is why i have such an issue with having to leave my dog in a position where i am not taking care of things for them. Personally i think the group stays are impractical, poorly taught in some cases- leading to very unreliable dogs, and don't adequately test a dogs obedience anyway. I would rather do an individual stay with people and friendly dogs moving past at a set distance where there is practical distraction not danger. In a group stay, i feel it is a loading stressful situation- particuarly because you are required to be so far from the dog and there are so many variables beyond your control. If i asked someone if they would take their dog to a park and let their dog be close to or interact with an unreliable or unknown dog- most would say no, even if the dogs were on leads. But yet, for the purpose of a trial we do exactly that with the added bonus of being at a distance, no lead in hand. My dogs are able to fall asleep in a stay if they're there for a long period of time- 15 minutes or more. They're able to do that because a stay is relaxing for them- no conflict, no conferentation- nothing bad will ever happen to you while your in a stay. My dogs help me with dog aggressive dogs and i use stays for those situations alot of the time- they need to have the utmost confidence in me that i will protect them- they do and thats why they are so relaxed in a stay. This in turn helps the reactive dog as well. Why would i want to jepardise (sp?) that trust and relationship they have with me? And the fact that these fights happen infrequently doesn't reassure me because they should not happen at all. Sorry for the rant..

I agree with Vickie. LP- i think your over complicating it a little. And as much as human handling and training should come under scrutiny as well, simple mistakes are not always the fault of the trainer/ handler. I think we have very different perspectives on this- you say the dog 'missed a drop during heel because the signal was too quick'. I say- why wasn't the dog paying enough attention to pick up a quick signal? So, no i don't believe that we are the cause of ALL disobedience. I understand what you are saying in terms of a dog being corrected for disobedience when it is in fact confused etc but i also see the results of the other extreme where people are told that the dog is confused or doesn't know the exercise when they clearly do. Its not just about giving the correction in the example that you mention- its how the dog responds to the correction that can assist in determining whether the dog was confused or knew what they should have done and didn't do it- which to me constitutes disobedience. How do you make things clear for a dog so that the confusion disapates- i show them what response will get what consequence and believe it or not, at times corrections can ease confusion not add to it. There are many reasons and explanations for disobedience- few of which i believe are acceptable. Dog ignored a recall to chase a rabbit- understandable, yes? Acceptable because there is a reason? No.

When i say hanging out to dry, i mean putting the dog in a situation where they have to take care of it and we're not (supposedly) to intervene for them. I am my dogs leader and i will protect them- if the same situation was occurring at a park what would we do? Why should a trial be any different? LP- i'm not sure what you mean when you talk about giving the dog the opportunity to deal with it? :p Its one thing to set up a dog for distraction training in a conrolled environment with other NON threatening dogs moving around, jumping over etc. I absolutely do this. But having another dog show dominant, stressed or reactive body language and expecting that my dog has the skills to deal with it effectively- i think that adds stress not decreases it because in every other situation, we tell the dog we'll look after them so that they never have to react. Hoping that your own dogs appeasing body language is enough is not a risk i would be prepared to take. Why, in this situation should our philosophies change? And i would absolutely go to my dog if a fight broke out- stuff the pass, stuff the trial and good luck to the judge or steward that tries to stop me from doing it!

Lp- i totally understand what you describe in terms of the distraction training but have one problem with the whole concept of the group stays/ dogs breaking etc. We teach our dogs to default to us when they are unsure. But then we teach in a stay that they have to stay there no matter what. My dogs have very very reliable stays but there are certain situations where i would almost want them to break to come and default to me- now in a trial in a situation like is described, that may very well cause a fight just by my dog moving. But i know that it would cause great conflict and loading for at least one of my dogs to hold a stay in a situation where the other dog is aggressing or being over the top friendly while she is in a stay. Should she hold the stay? My thoughts are this- yes she should hold the stay BUT i should intervene immediately to remove the threat for her so that she doesn't have to. I of course assume in a trial i am not allowed to do this? LP- were the dogs in the fight you saw injured? How and who got them apart? Sorry if my post is a bit OT but this really hits a chord with me- we say default to me when you're not sure and then we're asked to 'hang the dog out to dry' just because its in a trial. Its something that makes me seriously consider whether or not to ever trial in obedience again.

What are the advantages of a praise off over a show me? I have never heard of or used a praise off so thanks for the explanation clicking mad. WA dingo trainer- i wonder if you spoke to the same people i have because thats the exact question i was asked, followed by "trust your dog"!!

When in training, if we make a mistake, i don't allow the dog to continue running the course as i feel that for my dog, it rewards a behaviour i do not want. Of course then we go back and fix it. This rarely happens now unless i completely mess something up in which case i just fix my handing and do it again. My question is, does anyone do this in a trial- ie, pull their dog from the ring if they are not working well? Or do you continue to run so the dog finishes on a good note and fix the mistake next time you're training? Have any of you had any issues with a dog becoming ring smart? Do you do anything in the ring mid course if the dog does something you do not want that is not a direct result of poor handling at the time?

That criteria one is so important Pippi- i'm so glad i stuck to my guns on that one as i was being told to reward regardless of things like missing a weaver or contact. My girl's weavers have improved a hundred times over since i did my 'own thing' consistently.

Yes that did make sense. I do think we did do that in her early training, particularly with the interest, opening cupboard/ draw to find the source. So, when she does indicate slightly away from the source would you reward or always require that she finds the source before the reward comes? Or do you think that this would never happen if the initial training is correct?

Can you show this to the instructors at my club?

If only everyone took that advice k9.. Some people don't know how to choose or choose for the wrong reasons- i have had clients choose us because our website looks 'pretty'! or because they like our name. Its not easy for people to choose when they don't know what to look for.

Valid points kelpie-i, erny and k9. Just wanted to add that sometimes, while the diagnosis may be correct and a training technique/ behaviour mod program may be implemented that is considered appropriate at the time, this can change if the handler finds it difficult/ impossible to implement effectively or the dogs behaviour changes. The changes can often be made without having to jump from trainer to trainer as a good trainer/ behaviourist should (emphasis on should) have many techniques up their sleeve. These changes/ adjustments or continuation of the original program (if its the case that a misunderstanding occurred so the technique is right but not being implemented correctly) cannot be done if the original trainer/ behaviourist is not asked/ questioned, and in that way i believe that then jumping from trainer to trainer is detrimental as the original program has not been completed. If the original trainer is consulted and has nothing further to offer or improvements are not being made, by all means seeking another trainer is a valid thing to do. Its difficult in that clients don't know whether they are jumping from a good trainer to one who doesn't have the sufficient knowledge to deal with the problem or vice versa. I have seen cases where the client has been given the correct information but they have not followed through and then sought a second trainer, just as i have seen cases where the original trainer did (IMO) make some errors and potentially exacerbate the problem. But how is a client meant to know who is who and when they should continue to work with someone or seek a new trainer?

Very well put Erny I think i should just leave things for you to say because you seem to be able to type it far more eloquently than me!!

MsJames, with each of the training types you have tried, did you inform the trainer of the difficulties you began to experience while on your own? Sometimes going from trainer to trainer or training type to training type is not the best solution.

Hi Jeff- yes she had a find on normal basil first and last. I was running her so the OH put the targets and non targets out. The targets we have are all different in terms of the strength of the basil smell- anything from a whole jar with basil in it to a dvd case that either has a tiny amount of basil or a larger amount on and then removed completely- i can still smell the basil after it is gone, the stuff stinks! We are having one problem though. Last night we hid a target in our aquarium cupboard which has 2 doors. The target was hidden in the right door and the dog has come along and indicated as she got to the left door. She wasn't working particularly well and we weren't convinced she was actually smelling the target, looked more like she was indicating because something had been there last time. BUT, how do we know for sure- to reward or not to reward? Or give a show me command?

Sorry- forgot all about posting the update! We tried it out on Friday and while she showed quite alot of interest in it, she didn't indicate. It was interesting to see her body language change and i was actually pleased that she gave it a really thorough 'sniff' before deciding what she should do. It wasn't hidden in a room search just left on the floor. She was dynamite on the normal basil in the room searches though, now completely hidden targets in draws etc are not a problem- just need to teach her how to search a bit more independently and find/ indicate on targets that are out of her reach. We have been asked to use her for a demo at a country pet expo thats being planned for next year, so its more than just a bit of fun now!

Do you have the pup with you yet Kaz?

I completely understand why no one likes the idea of flooding without direct professional help and i agree. But with some cases of extreme fear, its simply not possible to work outside their critical distance and gradually desensitise. Its with these dogs that people usually continue to have serious problems with as they don't even realise that they are actually inadvertently carrying out incomplete flooding when they are trying to train/ desensitise.

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