Cosmolo

I recently had a dog that 'tested' my open minded-ness hence the topic. I used something i rarely use and it achieved a great result for the owner- reminding me tha being open minded and thinking outside the square is really important. I try to be as open minded as possible and feel that if a client asked me to train a certain way, i could absolutely do so- for example if a client wanted to clicker train, i know i could teach them and teach them well even though its not something i use in my own training at this stage. There is one thing that i am hesitant to compromise on though- and thats my attitude toward mouthing in puppies. Someone would have to make an excellent case for me to ever go back to extinction training (because of the reasons i mention in a previous post in this thread) Just for the record, when i trained in Perth, i was a 'purely positive' trainer- with little understanding of other techniques. I worked with a group of positive/ clicker trainers who i credit with sparking my obsession with training and i still consider them to be really good trainers. But i wanted to understand every technique, and then make a choice as to what i use. The first time someone asked me to give a correction i refused! But then opened up to learning and i'm glad i did.

I realise that an agility tunnel has little importance in the scheme of things and didn't mean to compare it to getting the dog in the house. When i refer to flooding through a tunnel i am talking about forcing the dog through a short tunnel- obviously lots of reward at the end. I guess what i am getting at with this line of thought is the prospect or potential to deny a dog from something that they are likely to enjoy and benefit from in terms of confidence and dealing with fear (and having fun to a lesser extent)- just because there will be some stress to begin with. Doesn't any kind of training produce a degree of stress? And while i definitely don't agree with pushing a dog into a sport that they won't enjoy just for the human benefit, there are many dogs who begin not enjoying something and through a number of different techniques- including positive reward, flooding and appropriate corrections (not in agility) learn to love it. There seem to be some people who believe that those dogs should not be persisted with or tried under a different technique and i find that interesting. Think about a person who is afraid of something and no amount of incentive will have them conquer the fear. They get pushed into it once and get the promised incentive (that was previously of no value- but became valuable once they had completed the 'exercise') and realise that nothing bad happened AND they got something great. I think that also increases the value of the motivator, as you don't have fear/ anxiety cancelling it out the next time. So you can actually increase enthusiasm and drive despite using a degree of compulsion. What are your thoughts on this concept? And yes i know dogs are not people but i think its a good analogy.

What about flooding a dog through a tunnel? We would definitely have to do that with Georgie the first time she faces it- does that mean that because we can't motivate her to go through the tunnel on her own that we shouldn't do it? I have seen a number of dogs flooded appropriately through tunnels who end up LOVING it. We had to flood Georgie over steps because there was no other way for her to get into the house if she wouldn't deal with stairs (we have them at front and back door) She would still be outside and scared of everything to this day if we hadn't forced her to deal with some of her issues.

Georgie is around 12 months we think. She adores every dog we've ever allowed her to meet, just people (men in particular) that she is scared of- all flight though.

I think you raise a good point LP- i know many people who aren't able to just give the correction and 'move on' and hence, the dogs work absolutely suffers. LP, don't you think you can look for the good and the bad- its not a matter of exclusively looking for one or the other? "I've never really had a situation where the consequences were of no importance..... maybe i'm lucky" I think that you are lucky OR i think its more likely that you do have those situations but as you said, you just choose to go back a step. I would love for you to have seen and dealt with Georgie when we first got her or even now and get a perspective on what you would have done- not to crticise just out of interest. She is a unique and very difficult dog and i had never seen anything like her previously. She would have been a great dog to show consequences of no importance! Extending this further- Can you teach an initially unmotivated dog to enjoy a sport that they may not enjoy initially? To give an example, Georgie, our newest dog i'm sure will be quite frightened of certain aspects of agility to begin with. However, i'm also confident that she will learn to love it as soon as she knows what to do. Under some theories though- would i not do agility because the dog doesn't like some aspects at this point? (i'm not talking about corrections at all just to clarify)

WMR- i have one of those too, we got Georgie just before Christmas and she was terrified of everything! Its still pretty obvious although we have worked with her and she has improved. SM has met her so might be able to give an unbias opinion!!

Its great to get your perspectives- lets see if we can take it a few steps further. I'm not trying to be critical of anyone, just trying to get a better understanding of where you're coming from. Breaking it up like that raises a whole lot of interesting questions ness- do you consider obedience to have a role in keeping a dog 'safe'? At what point is it not a game? Interesting that you say you have an open mind AS long as all the methods are positive?? You don't think the dog can enjoy the sport after receiving a correction? "So what if your dog is in the ring and doesn't drop on a drop on recall"- I totally understand what you are saying in that in the ring, this is just a mistake- nothing more and is not a big deal. But what if the same thing happened when you asked the dog to drop on recall if the dog was about to run across the road toward you? Do we expect our dogs to be ring smart so that they know when its important and when it isn't? Then i think we have to consider the owners need for a certain behaviour and that will vary from owner to owner. For instance i see some clients who are willing and able to use extinction training for a behaviour like jumping up or attention seeking barking. That is certainly my preference if the dog hasn't been practicing the behaviour for long and if the owners are willing and able. BUT, what about those owners who have children, an illness or disability etc and need the behaviour stopped as quickly as possible for reasons such as neighbours complaints to council etc? Here's another question for those of us that use extinction training- Do you consider the breed and drive of the dog before using extinction training as a technique?In the last 6 months I have seen 3 adult cattle dogs with potentially serious aggression issues, all of which, the owners were told to ignore mouthing as a puppy. What happened is that the dogs, being herding breeds, was in drive while doing the behaviour and thus rewarded regardless of the owners actions or inaction. When the behaviour continued, owners would try some kind of correction, verbal or otherwise, that was ill timed or insufficient, in turn providing attention to the dog usually during an extinction burst and the behaviour was continually elevated to a new level. Would it have been better to teach them how to give an effective correction to begin with? LP- you said "their mistakes are generally based on misunderstanding rather than disobedience". Are we talking about misunderstanding of the exercise itself OR misunderstanding of the consequences (both positive and negative) for compliance and non compliance? What about the dog who understands the exercise but does not comply because the consequences are not of importance to him/her? Because for me that would be part of determining whether or not a correction was to be given. I love these discussions

Question for everyone who trains, particularly if you train other people and their dogs- how open minded are you in regard to techniques, equipment and training tools when you train your dog and/ or someone else/s? Do you make blanket statements like 'i would never use a "insert training equipment here"? Do you assess the dog before choosing the training equipment? If you are at a club- are they open or closed to different ways of doing things? Do you attend lectures and seminars about topics that you don't necesarily agree with to add to your knowledge? Do you feel you have a range of tools at your disposal? I have met many trainers who have developed or learned a certain technique (whatever it is- some great, some not) and refuse to go outside the bounds of it even if it may benefit the dog AND handler. I never want to get so stuck in a way of doing something that i am incapable of doing it differently and am interested in your thoughts.

Its a Bart Bellon seminar on Negative/ positive stimulus training. And of course i'm avoiding you LP- those dogs of yours are pretty scary More like i'm scared everyone will be able to recognise how slack i've been with training Cosmo the last few months!! She compensates for me alot though!

I really wanted to go too WMR. I wouldn't be able to get there before 5:30 now!! Easter and a seminar on the gold coast create 2 short weeks for us and after being quiet for a little while, i suddenly have clients everywhere! in one way and in another! I could probably make it to Sunday the 29th though..

Vickie, i can certainly try and keep a diary of what we do- do you want me to post it here? Has anyone ever had a fast running dog that was taught 2o2o skid/ fall because they were going too fast?

Can anyone post a link to a video of some UK heeling?

LP, i never use come at any other time unless i want them to find the position. My informal recall is 'here', the dogs name or a whistle, all of which just mean come back and hang around me. Come means find that position right now. And i totally agree with SM- heel means be close and i don't think you should need another command such as close. This has similar thoughts to the use of stay and wait though- heel means heel close until i release you just as sit means sit and drop means drop. Lp, just to play devils advocate for a second- if Leo knew heel and you didn't want to mess it up- did he really 'know' heel and/ or was your criteria too lax?? Surely knowing heel is the dog being very close to you?

Just wanting everyones opinons on when they think a dog is in their prime for dog sports like agility, flyball, retrieving, herding, obedience etc. I kow it depends on lots of factors but all other things being equal, what do you think is the best age to be working a dog in any of the above?

Good question LP as i have been pondering Cosmo's off lead heeling performance of late. Initially i taught Cosmo to target my leg with her head in a stationary position. I would do this again as well as luring the dog when in motion. I now do alot of her finding the position from different places so that she truly understands the position and that the quickest way to get there is not always the same thing each time. To begin with i taught a formal recall which i wouldn't do again- i don't think it teaches the position it teaches that heel means go behind me on the right side and stop and sit at my left leg. So no matter where she was, even if just slightly out from heel, she would always want to go around to the right to 'find heel' again. I want heel to mean- find the heel position as quickly as possible. I do think i used too many corrections in proofing heel and as a result have some lagging (minimal but still there) when she is off lead. We will be combatting this by her prey/ toy reward being thrown out in front while she is heeling, releasing her as soon as we do so. I would rather deal with a surging dog than a lagging dog. Please forgive me for going a bit OT, but on the subject of finding different positions, does anyone do this with a 'come' command? I have started teaching Cosmo to find 'come' from a heel and 'close' (which is her command to be on the right) and i think it has improved her recall alot as she knows wherever she is that come means get to this EXACT position as quickly as you can. Why do we teach find heel but not find 'come'?

I might not be able to make it to either one now.. The joys of running your own business..

I think that as trainers, its important that we don't get so competitive and caught up that we miss out on imparting knowledge to other people. I have the opposite problem and have to check myself sometimes when i really want to give advice or assist and the person is not so receptive! As trainers we have to mould and adjust the way we teach and impart knowledge- every trainer acknowledges that dogs are different but we also need to acknowledge that handlers are different. I have some clients that i can push hard and be very direct with (thats how they learn and they love it) and some clients that i baby step to begin with to build their confidence. Some clients love to have a joke and can laugh at themselves, others can't- there's nothing wrong with either personality type- its just different and we need to adjust accordingly. I was lucky enough to handle a friends Alaskan Mal (in Perth actually) when i first started more serious training and he taught me an awful lot. I don't remember what titles he had but he had plenty- both obedience, agility and showing. I consider myself very privilieged to have known and been allowed to work with him on occasion. He passed away a few years ago

Thanks for all the thoughts and info- it is very interesting. I will have a look at that website Vickie. Great point that you make about dogs who naturally have a running contact with no formal training- the instructors dogs where i train seem to fall into that category as they are bigger and slower and don't 'bounce around' so to speak. So they don't really like 2o2o as they've never had to use it and their dogs contacts are very reliable. I am going to try and train a running contact as i do think i have a dog who is more than capable of picking it up- if i'm wrong she will also be an easy dog to re teach a 2o2o if needed. But you make some great points about what i need to be aware of while i do that. My dog does not have a natural stride that would take her over the contacts so it will need to be a taught running contact. I know some people think that running contacts are old news and can't/ shouldn't be taught- this will be a learning experience for me as well but i do think we can do it.

Thanks for the explanation staff n toller, i am going to my vet today for something else so i might have a chat to them and see what they think.

Crash test dummy- can i ask a dumb question- what is a stride adjuster? Have never seen them before. Interesting that not everyone is doing 2o2o for everything- i was beginning to think i was the only one not doing 2o2o but obviously i'm not. Still be interested in your reply Vickie

I'm coming on the 14th- not so much wanting lots of assistance, more just having the opportunity to use distractions, help others and work in a different environment I'll have 2 dogs with me

Otto always has been to strangers, he had a good snap at one of the international students when they went to pat him when you would have known him Erny. He has gotten worse with total strangers- he used to approach them cautiously but now chooses to avoid them if he possibly can.

Do you mind me asking who it is that you see in Perth Ness? I worked with quite a few delta trainers in Perth before i moved and curious to see whether its someone i know!

Is there no one in your area who can assist with private training ness? The trainer in perth must be exceptional for you to travel over there!! That'd be one expensive private lesson!

The arthritis in Otto is in his front legs and Jessie's is in her front wrists and hindquarters. Thanks for the suggestion tangerine, will mention it to the vet when i'm there next.