Cosmolo

So BB, do you think trainers should be able to fix problems no matter what? Its not just about the dog. We are sometimes ask if we give guarantees- and we always say no. Its not like a plumber who comes in, fixes the plumbing and leaves and you leave the plumbing alone. There are inputs into the dog other than what the trainer does in a 1-2 hour session! A trainer can come in, influence the dog to a great degree in one session but changing people takes longer and limitations, prior learning and dynamics often have an effect. I love e collars- but i cannot imagine using one in this situation. It sounds like a good plan OP to have the dog crated when your partner leaves.

While i don't think its a bad thing for an older dog to 'correct' a puppy- it concerns me greatly that the older dog latched on and would not let go of the puppy- was there damage done? Do you live with the older dog?

I don't mean the dog left unsupervised with that question that has been quoted- it was aimed at BB and was meant to explore the high risk of a poorly timed correction from someone not dealing directly with the dog at the time- in the same room does not mean right next to the dog. Regardless- i think the trainers advice was/ is sound as i have said previously. Corvus- i am glad i'm not the only one that thought that!! Listen to and discuss your concerns with your trainer OP- they have seen your dog, understand the situation and to my knowledge, they are open to a range of techniques so i am sure there will be things she can add to your training program to assist you if required. ETA I don't know why people expect dog trainers/ behaviourists to be able to wave a magic wand- no such wands exist when dealing with a dog AND a family/ handler/ owner dynamic!

I think the trainer does have their priorities straight- keeping the children SAFE while the dog has its attitude adjustment. There are so many things that could go wrong with what you're suggesting BB- training techniques have changed for a reason or 3- 1- because we know that some things work better than simply choking dogs to create long lasting, quality behavioural change. 2- because dogs 'these days' are different to the dogs of 30-40 years ago. Very few dogs that are high drive, hard nerved dogs and this increases the potential for use of excessive harsh corrections to have negactive fallout 3- owners are different 'these days'. Time poor, less experienced with dogs in many cases etc. I like appropriate corrections, i like blocking behaviour with compulsion when needed as a step in a multi step process of teaching the dog what to do. I don't advocate what you're suggesting though and have never done it in training.

Would be handy to have the answer to both of those questions erny

There is a huge difference between holding a dog out and away from you on a lead to prevent yourself from being bitten, and using 'choking the dog out' as a correction.

And this is why dog owners think that trainers that give corrections are extremists who hang dogs etc.. There is a whole lot of in between not correcting at all, and hanging dogs "choking them out". Even if it was the right thing to do (which i don't think it is at all), how many people do you honestly think are willing to and capable of doing it? What would you suggest for the times when the adult is not there, not close at hand etc?

BB- did you miss my question?

What kind of correction would you suggest be delivered black bronson? By the child? Genuine question.

Does a vet have any obligation to report a dog/ owner if- the dog is being neglected/ mistreated? the dog is dangerous in some way and owner ignores advice to muzzle the dog in public. (assuming vet knows first hand the dogs issues and has seen dog outside veterinary clinic environment) the owner is not meeting legislational requirements like registering micro chipping etc? Just interested in the legal obligations.

And black bronson, what do you suggest in terms of an aversive that can be delivered by a CHILD? A child cannot deliver proper corrections NOR can they deal with the escalation that this dog would likely have when its expectations are challenged. An aversive delivered by the parent in that situation would likely be poorly timed as they are unlikely to be 100% focussed on the dog every time the situation occurs. Seriously guys- training is not all about the dog. Its about the owner, the handler, the family and what they are capable of and confident in delivering!! Just because i might deal with something in a certain way with my own dog doesn't mean everyone else can do that. I am pretty sure i know who the trainer is too, and they are not a 'purely positive' trainer.

Contact the Glen Eira Vet in Ormond 9578 0041

Can i also just add that trainers/ behaviourists are not miracle workers and cannot change things in an instant for the people handling the dog- they can often change the dog, in part, within a session but as dogs are very context and people specific- the change carrying over with the family often takes longer. While the dog is undergoing an attitude adjustment, i believe it IS a sensible thing for the trainer to advise that the child basically avoid confrontation with the dog- these confrontations cannot be won by children!! Number one rule- avoid confrontation at all costs but once you're in one, never, ever lose- this is what the trainer is trying to avoid- the dog having repeated success of mouthing/ snapping winning and achieving the desired result. I would add some counter conditioning to the training if its not there already, as Corvus said this would likely be very helpful and even with a childs average timing- can still work well.

Pedigree or RRB crosses? I assessed a lovely RRB x at AAPS today.

Can you spell S-E-L-L-O-U-T!!!? It is outrageous to believe that feeding raw is more dangerous than a dog engaging in normal 'dog' activities. You would need to keep a dog in a bubble to ensure they don't carry bacteria, there are alot worse things dogs do than eat raw food. How do they propose teeth are kept clean? Surely plaque build up in more unhygienic? Why are so many organisations/ professional individuals selling out lately? Where's the integrity..

I wonder who they will announce as their new premium dry food sponsor.. ETA Can't believe even if another animal in the home is fed raw, the dog's not allowed to be a pet partner.. Wonder if they count my turtles being fed raw food? lol

Cosmo- very creative, extremely persistent. I believe this is because she has done alot of free shaping and has many behaviours in her repotoire- she knows so much that she is pretty sure she will hit on the behaviour i want with free shaping. She is a confident but soft dog, has done some training in prey drive, had some corrections in obedience training and now works predominantly with food rewards. Georgie- not very creative but learning to be more persistent. She doesn't know as much as Cosmo and had extreme fear based issues when we got her as an adult dog so i think this initially influences how persistent she is- she needs alot more help than the other dogs. She really is getting there though- improving each time we train and to be honest, whenever we 'work' her we are always surprised at just how good she is! She has not done any shaping yet, has been trained with a combo of an e collar and food rewards and now really works in food drive. Dexter- is in between Georgie and Cosmo in terms of both things. He doesn't think as independently as Cosmo so he is not as creative but he can be quite persistent, especially if he has done the skill before. He has alot of expression and enthusiasm in the things he knows- he throws himself into everything and i don't want to lose that. I haven't done any free shaping with him yet as i believe i need to build up some other things first for him- he will get confused if i push him to shape too soon. He has been trained with a combo of an e collar, food rewards, people rewards and prey drive rewards and will work for just about anything. He is a really fun dog to work- he'll never be as reliable or able to think like Cosmo can but his enthusiasm makes up for that in spades! Jessie- Is probably the least creative out of the lot and definitely the least persistent. She was not always like that though- she's certainly changing as she ages. We have managed to improve this a little bit with some basic problems solving games (all of my dogs play with the Nina Ottuson games) but we are actually beginning to wonder if there is some very early dementia as Jess is nearly 11 and seems to be getting 'less intelligent' as she gets older. She enjoys doing things she knows well but struggles with new things at times. We don't push her because she is physically and mentally slowing so we just have her do the fun stuff she knows. Gilbert- is the baby of the bunch and i think has the potential to be very similar to Cosmo. He is very persistent with a range of different things and i think the creativity will come as we train him further. He is VERY food motivated and VERY toy motivated and maybe just a little too confident and smart for his own good. It will be interesting to see how he develops- i think he will be ready to free shape sooner than Dexter and Georgie or at least at the same time.

HollyE- read the posts in the last few pages- that will answer your question. I voted yes

Somethings not quite right with that- sounds like dogs were loose on the tarmac- otherwise how would the person walking them not be injured or move them out of the way?

For those who don't look in the rescue forum http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=185935

Canberra is coming up in a little less than a month- places remain in all sessions but tehre are only 3 private lessons remaining so please don't delay if you intended to book a session.

Rate in what terms- scale of 1-10? Or something else? Good question too- i will have different answers for all my dogs.

I think you need to look at seeing an experienced trainer to help you resolve this issue if you haven't already, before the habit becomes more ingrained. Whereabouts are you located?

I have never seen a case where being desexed early could be the sole cause of aggression issues. furballs- has your dog been diagnosed by a behaviourist?

NO black bronson- you have misunderstood. I am not referring to clients dogs, i am referring to dogs in animal shelters where at times there is no training currently available for them. Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions! These dogs are ALL going to be desexed anyway- it is NOT my recommendation in place of training.