KobiD

I have a quick question Our 7 month old pup knows leave it, and drop it, but it isn't entirely generalised. The problem I am having is when we're out on a walk. At the moment there are a load of earthworms that have come out onto footpaths or the road and dried up. Puppy thinks these are a delicious trail snack. We've been working with them where I point one out, cover with my foot and mark and reward as she pulls away. Rewarding when she grabs one and drops it on her own too. The problem is the sheer number of them!! I can't control the resource to the extent that she doesn't self reward. Once she has one 'drop it' is worthless. It's down the hatch before I can even say it in most cases. I don't want her to feel that she can eat whatever she wants when we're out on walks either, so would like her to work towards being able to ignore things until released to have them. In saying that it's a hard thing to train while we're training loose leash walking and there are treats getting scattered everywhere with her being encouraged to pick them up. Thoughts welcome.

I'm no expert on the matter... far from it, and it depends on the methods you have been using to train. It may be a case that you use the crate while you can't supervise. The crate shouldn't really be place of punishment, but a secure place where he can relax and not get into mischief. If you haven't trained an 'on your mat/bed' cue you could start working on that. A quick search will turn up methods of how to do that. Then control the training sessions where you can catch him before he jumps up on the couch. If he looks like he wants to jump up, cue on your mat and then reward heavily. If he does manage to get up, cue off and mark and reward the moment the paws hit the floor. Then back to on the mat.. Mark and reward or give a kong to build the duration, or play a little game if he likes to play. Start with short sessions and build up the duration. This morning we ate breakfast outside with our 7 month old puppy. She was tied off to a post, but close enough that she could get her paws up on the back of a chair. We simply sat eating breakfast as a family ignoring her behaviour but still watching out of the corner of my eye. The moment she stopped mark and reward. Then we waited again. She sat down. Mark and reward. Kept eating.. then she laid down. Mark and reward. By just watching and allowing her to be she was making choices. She'd sit. Then lay again. Laying down she'd get marked and rewarded. Then we'd build the duration. Still laying down... mark and reward (positioning the treat where she didn't have to get up). By the time breakfast was done she was happily laying on the ground, by her own choice, because that was what worked for her. A good session done. In time I won't feed her while we eat.. but it will take time to work up to that duration, and she'll understand that if she waits until everyone has finished she'll get a treat.

I understand. While you give the cue off, he'll be thinking 'OK! I'm off.. what now?? I really like it up there!" If you reward and encourage an alternate behaviour it should allow him to make the choice which pays better dividends.

If you haven't already, train a cue to have him remove himself from the couch. Reward heavily while training.. and then focus on rewarding the desired alternate behaviours (laying on the floor/own bed). Be consistent!

I can see where you are coming from, and from your original post there is limited information regarding the challenges you are having. With our puppy I have opted to train her myself (my first time training a dog, however always had them around as a child). The rest of the family has no experience with dogs at all so it's been as much teaching myself, the puppy, and the family.. but I have enjoyed the process. The thing is that I am the kind of person who gets great satisfaction out of learning and applying that knowledge, and that expands beyond just the pets. My wife on the other hand like to be taught (demonstrations, guidance, etc). She doesn't have the time or desire to sit and read, filter, try and apply.. and from what I can see it seems you are more like her. In saying that, I still agree with everyone else that having someone to work directly with you would be preferential to sending the dog off. It's equally as much your responsibility to liaise with the trainer and ask for guidance if there is something you're not sure about. If you ask them to show you something they should be more than willing, but ultimately it'll be you reinforcing the behaviour day in and day out.. and it's that same consistent behaviour on our part which shapes the dog over time. All the times my partner has got frustrated at the puppy (and the amount of time I spend with the puppy), I simply remind her of something I read... that the first 12 months are the most important.. the time you put in is an investment into the rest of the dogs life. While with children you get around 16-20 years to teach them what is expected of them, you only get 12-18 months to teach the dog the same thing. It makes for a very busy time! ...and I can see how that can be an issue for you particularly if you are in a situation where you don't have a lot of time on your hands.

As above. How do you react to his barking in general? How do you react to his actions towards your housemates? How do your housemates react? Does he only become protective at night, or is it all the time? They'll probably be similar to the questions you'll be asked, or what the behaviourist will try and observe.

We're in the same situation. Have an indoor cat and I don't think I've ever trained him other than to sit to eat, and to keep his claws out the furniture (which he still needs reminding of at times!) The dog is on another level.. not quite as challenging as the little humans, but due to them developing so quickly it seems that there is so much to do and such little time!! I've been using a somewhat longish leash (maybe 1.5M) and let the dog pretty much use all of it. I'm happy for her to meander around in the same manner I'd like her to if she wasn't on a leash.. I figure that really I'm taking her for a walk for her well being more than mine. It's for her to investigate sights, smells, sounds etc. In exchange all I want is a loose leash and for her to effectively still follow cue. Mind you we're not walking down busy streets or the likes where I would expect her to hold much closer. As above.. all depends on what you want

It would be possible barb. If she has her bone she's quite happy to sit outside by the door and chew away. I tied her off to something in the shed today and gave her a toy to play with and that worked alright. Once again I think it's a process of me needing to stay a step in front of her and not giving her the opportunity to frustrate me.. she's so determined at times! I might try and incorporate a few more training sessions in there and heavily rewarding calm behaviour. I have done this before, but it's difficult when you want your mind on task, and on the dog at the same time. Coming up to 7 months old now, and she has been mellowing so hopefully with time she'll be happy to lay on a mat and chill. Still working with a couple new 'tricks' but mainly focusing on manners with the children, play (tug and retrieving), gentle greetings with people, and her impulse control towards other dogs. Daily work going in, and seeing the rewards. I think we're on the right track given her age. I don't think she's been a difficult puppy, but she's definitely been teaching me a thing or two about patience. I find it interesting how hard and determined she is.. very independent and fearless... but at the same time so happy to be picked up and cuddled like a little lap dog still.

Thought about starting another thread, but figured I'd ask here first.. Is there any way to teach a leave it, that means leave it now and leave it in 3 minutes? Puppy has been coming along nicely. I still have my frazzled days where she tests me, but on the whole we're moving in the right direction. I'm having issues when I go to work in the shed. It's like a playground for her. Flooring carpet! Kids toys! Buckets! Hoses!! More kids toys!! Rags.. Plus whatever I have on the workbench.. I could tie her up while I go in there.. but more often than not I have simply given her a bone which buys me 20-30mins to do what I have to do before she comes and bothers me. Other times when I've tried to just quickly do something it drives me nuts. She's into everything. Stealing toys and running off with them. It's good practice for leave it and drop it.. but she's strong willed and 2 seconds later she's going for it again. Will this be something she grows out of? Any suggestions for now? I'm thinking either tie her back somewhere or give her something else to do (as I have been).

High value rewards help big time for a food motivated dog! The family and I went for a walk together this afternoon and it was trying! only using kibble and the added excitement of the whole family walking ahead was a bit too much. Not pulling the whole way, but a definite step back from the usual stroll through the same area. This dog of mine teaches me patience daily.. as do the kids and wife!

This I've found that most of the pulling happens due to excitement, generally as a result of entering a new area. More to see, more to smell, etc. It's a process of generalising what you expect in a variety of situations. By keeping the focus off walking, and more along the lines of keeping a relaxed nature and loose leash in a variety of environments your pup should begin to learn that it is expected everywhere, including when moving between them. For instance with my puppy (now 6 months), she used to walk great in the back yard, and pull as soon as she'd see the front yard. Working slowly she now has no issues there. Going down the street she'd get distracted and the behaviour would fall apart, so I'd stop and return to where she could. Each day, quick walks to somewhere new, and see if she can comply. If she does we continue, if not we move back. Same if I load her in the car and take her somewhere. It takes time for her to get over the initial excitement, and I make time to show her that we don't go until she settles. It's a right pain and takes the fun out of things like going to the beach for a walk.. as you end up going to the beach to take 3 steps this way, 3 steps back and so on.. but it will pay dividends in the future.

While we had the sister in laws dog over we spent a lot of time working on focus while another dog was present. Really beneficial to have her there for a full week where we could focus on controlled socialisation, and given that the older dog wasn't interested in play it really allowed us to let them interact and then recall and either treat or play a game. Also as her loose leash walking has been coming along we've been able to go for walks as a family where having the kids tag along would be too much of a distraction for the dog. This in turn allows her to see more people and dogs in public. There is also a yard near by which has a border collie and an older retired bull arab which will happily come to the fence and sniff. Allows us to work with a barrier in a public place where she can learn to approach without being too excited, and get rewards for still listening. Still more work to go with other dogs walking on leash, at distance she's OK, but typically gets a bit too excited if they pass by and will fixate and let out a few playful barks. She doesn't pull too much though, but getting her focussed back on walking is a bit of a challenge as she wants to follow the scent. Same goes when we leave our street out onto the main one where many dogs walk daily. She gets very overwhelmed with all the smells! Have been using that to help generalise/proof behavious. We're getting there.

I haven't actually cued her to heel at this stage. I've been using "let's go" to which I expect her to come back in to my left hand side and focus. I have been building that behaviour in the back yard with little distraction/in conjunction with feeding time and she can pull in quite well, but not competition level. So from that point of view we haven't really done any damage. Do you tend to lure to get the correct heel position initially?? or more of a shaping exercise? To be honest, I don't particularly have any drive towards competition/obedience work. I'm enjoying just spending time with the dog, the problem solving required to stay ahead of her, and the patience/skills it's teaching me (more so not to be so persistent when I'm starting to get frustrated). So I have taught her everything myself, with the wife and kids being involved in reinforcing the same principals/behaviours. The missus hasn't had many pets (and no dogs) in her life so it's all new to her and she has expressed going to do some obedience classes to build her confidence and knowledge a bit more, as well as socialising the dog in a controlled environment. We went with the kids and left the dog at home a few weeks ago to have a look and see what the classes are all about. They start their annual membership at the beginning of the financial year so she'll probably sign up then. Also saw the puppies sibling there.. very similar looking, perhaps a bit less leggy and more stocky build.. but very much the same excitable exuberant personality. The cub is affiliated with Dogs Queensland, and holds competition trials for Agility, Jumping, Games, Obedience and Rally-O. They need to work through from beginner to level 3 before they can participate. I tried asking several times for a break down of the level requirements but couldn't get a straight answer. Regardless they would start her in beginner.. and personally I think the biggest challenge for her at this stage would be maintaining focus in the company of so many other dogs.. Just another thing we've been working on and making progress with. Part of me wants to move slowly and keep her set up to succeed rather than to throw her in the frying pan and wait for her to settle. Both ways should work.. one would just be less frustrating for me at the end of the leash.

Great advice corvus! I think I should be able to use play quite well as a reward as well, as long as I condition her as you've said above. With certain toys she loves to chase and tug, but still working on a recall. She'd rather run off and chew than come back and have me throw again. I have been doing this more frequently as well and building/reinforcing behaviours this way too. Often mixing it up, so game game, slip a random food reward in.. maybe just praise for a slow half baked effort. I think the key will be me noticing when she begins to tire and stopping before she loses interest. I feel like she has made some big gains in the last week with her excitement levels/impluse control both with people and other animals... so I definitely think we're making progress and moving in the right direction.. I'm just really good at over thinking and trying to stay one step infront. It seems every day she shows me something else I need to work on..

I understand! Cuddles and fuss and praise, and games would be good with me.. but I'm having trouble building the value into them. Games work really well.. when she's high energy and wants to play. Praise appears so so. She will sometimes take it, and other times blow me off. Same for belly rubs etc. Very time and place. Food trumps everything!!! Not that I am complaining. It has made it very easy to work with her on the whole, and she's not very pushy with getting food either. She just gets very focussed.. which is great!! I'd just like to see similar focus and drive with other life rewards. We're getting there though.. and I continue to try and build the praise value, and especially the game value. The life rewards like wanting to investigate or sniff when out on walks I have been using as well. In some ways I think it will just take more time to where certain behaviours become nature and won't need to be reinforced as heavily. At the moment I feel like I am constantly rewarding everything positive I see, as to avoid her learning otherwise...

So you're more of an advocate for continuous reinforcement rather than variable? Does that mean you reward everything your dog does? Or as the behaviours become proved you simply keep increasing the requirements before rewarding?

She loves food!!! food is her everything. She loves new and exciting. Be it smells, animals, or people, or toys. She likes to play, but it depends on her energy level. She's typically very laid back during the day. The afternoon she get's a bit zoomie so not ideal for training other than quick short bursts. She's full of energy in the mornings and depending on the time I have we'll either try and go for a walk to work on impulse control with people/animals.. or we'll work obedience with her tug toys/rope. She isn't a Velcro dog and while she'll follow me in a general sense, she doesn't feel the need to be in contact and I don't think she values physical affection much (other than a tummy rub or lap cuddle when she's in a calm state). Been having trouble getting a decent heel out of her when walking too. Take three steps nicely and reward and then she's 3 steps infront. She doesn't hold with or naturally drop into a sit. She tends to find the end of the leash and then back off, so not particularly pulling but leading and investigating. I continue to reward when she looks back to check in, or when I call her back (get back), or stops for me to make up ground (wait). On the other side, using the TOT principals for dinner I can place the bowl and walk off saying let's go.. she'll heel on my left leg as far as I want. Place her in a sit stay, down, stay, come, stop, come, spin, sit, paw, other paw, etc etc etc. OK and she'll go and eat. She will work for food like there is no tomorrow.

I guess the problem I have is not so much with her knowing where the treats come from.. but seeing the shift in her drive from the treats flowing to the hand running empty. Maybe poor management on my behalf for letting that happen, but then again the reality is that I won't always have a hand/pocket/bowl full of treats on me, nor do I really want it. I think it will just be a long period of getting through the puppy stages and proofing the behaviours until they become natural to her at which stage I imagine the rate of reinforcement can probably drop off. Also as she learns to control her impulses it will be less of a challenge and as such the rate/value of reward will probably drop down too. We've had my sister in laws maltese shih tzu here for the best part of a week now. They are separated by a screen door most times, and went from barking with excitement wanting to play to the point where I can sit with the little one on my lap and my dog laying at my feet. All just time, patience, and making it known what the expectations are.. and then being consistent.

A pic from today, and one from last month.. I've still got no idea what she is.. 6 months, 16 kg so medium sized. I'm thinking some staffy maybe, but also has a long snout. Sometimes looks a bit lab/staff.. Nice girl though.

Thanks for chiming in Barb! She only really gets to go off leash with my parents dog. Never with any unknowns. The advantage is that their dog will both put her in place when she needs it, but she will also break away and return on command, so while my puppy is a bit out of control the whole situation isn't entirely. While this happens I go right back to basics. HIGH value treats, and train everything like it's a new behaviour. Mark and reward for minimal eye contact. Mark and reward when calm/passive/submissive. Mark and reward for a 'lets go' the moment she turns. Mark and reward 'leave it' if she's getting into it a bit rough. They do play quite well together and I feel it teaches her things I can't, while also being a big out for her. We also don't just unclip and let them at it. It's structured and we close the distance as she's calm, but the initial greeting always has some kind of stoush between them and play starts on the older dogs say so. I've been working on things as you say too. Having stashes of treats rather than always out of the pocket or hand. She still expects it a bit so more work needed for sure! I'll see if I can source those resources you've recommended and expand my mind/knowledge a bit more too! I really need to get a pic of her as well

Another month on, another update. This has become more of a training/obedience thread than a puppy problem one, but at 6 months I guess she is still a puppy, heading towards adolescence. I've been very happy with her progress, however I'm still struggling with the variable reinforcement to a certain extent. I continue to try and mix up where the treats come from, how often they come, what they are and their value. But clearly I'm not mixing it up enough. I continue to ask for more from here, stringing behaviours together, increasing duration, and adding distractions once she's got things to a certain point.. The rewards get built into what we are doing. If we're playing the toys become the reward and release, if walking sometimes going to where she wants to sniff etc is the reward, other times it's just praise and affection, and sometimes it's food. BUT!! she's a clever dog who is very self confident and a little hard, and quite independent.. AND she knows before you even ask her to do anything if there is anything in it for her. She's not overly driven by praise or pats, and I'm a male with quite a deep monotone voice who is pretty calm in nature (not easily excitable) which probably plays a bit into it too. She is extremely food driven!! but she knows there is food on hand. I don't flash the food first or lure her to perform using it (unless learning something new, which quickly turns to a hand signal, followed by cue)... I get frustrated that she looks at me, and then looks at my hand, looks at me, looks at hand. If I have treats somewhere else to do "lets get a treat".. she'll run back to the treats. Essentially I feel like she's only working for the food, and not so much for me... Perhaps I just need to change my perspective and be happy that she is so driven during training sessions, but I'd like to see her give similar levels of focus and attentiveness when she knows that there is no food/toys on hand. That she'll still listen while we're out in the yard. And to a certain degree she does. I think it just shows/proves that she is still a puppy and still developing. She is a bit aloof if there is no food, she'll follow me around, and play still, but with much less focus, and may/may not listen.. I don't reward her ignoring me by then bribing, and I don't really let her self reward by ignoring her either. I don't continue to ask. If she won;t play I give her a negative mark word/sound and usually cease trying to ask for anything, or follow with a firmer posture and strong hand signal for her to follow, and then praise. Also, I've been working hard to build her impulse control with other dogs setting up the relationship between other animals and treats coming. She is learing to settle and not pull and retain calmer, while looking back at me for direction which are great, but when she plays off leash she is still very hard headed too.. Doesn't really respect other dogs space and doesn't read their signals well at all. She has been put in her place by my parents cattle dog, and she just bounces back up and continues like it's all a game... she does get it, but it takes a while... and then they play along really well for the rest of the day. I think it's just part of her breed/temperament in general. I found the same with her as a puppy.. Happy to hear any advice or suggestions, or just feedback in general.

And another update! Amazing how quickly time passes and how quickly things move along. Lots of work has been going in, but we're now at a point where I can let our 2.5 year old daughter walk around with a bowl of dog food and the puppy following. They've got a really good bond, and the little one loves getting the puppy to do tricks. Sit, paw, lay down, leave it and OK, and find it. Quite amazing watching the puppy focus on my daughter, respecting her space and doing as she asks. If she doesn't follow cue the little one does the hand signals (usually arms flailing everywhere) and if that fails I simply give a nice clear hand signal. It's almost like she is learning complete new cues in toddler talk, but it's working well and given that both of them are just shy of 13kgs it's a good thing! 8 year old son also helps out with feeding and play time. He works with the rope/tug toys.. drop it, leave it etc. and he primarily rewards with play and affection. Puppy loves to take her chew toy and try to curl up on his lap. Every time she comes and leans into his legs for a scratch she ends up laying on her back getting her belly rubbed. Still working at impulse control/reducing excitement with guests, but making progress. Still have some days that make me shake my head. Loose leash walking is progressing, but it's taking time.

Thanks Karen, Understand all you are saying! We're already on top of the recall scenario. I've only just started the feeding recall and it's only a single aspect which also includes her impulse control. In the last couple days it's building from a bounce into a collar touch and release, and it will build into a sit (follow cues) and release shortly. She would probably do it right now, but I'm working up to it. In all her other training she comes in and sits, and will sit and happily have her collar clipped on/off; to the point I don't really need to ask or cue. The dinner routine is more aimed at building a strong/faster recall - stronger/super mega high value reward (in her eyes). I'm understanding your second part as well. I don't really have high expectations of what she is to do/not to do. Happy for her to express herself, particularly if she is injured/in pain. As she is maturing more and learning the cues and proofing in various situations and with greater distractions she's getting it and I'm not feeling like she's as purely interested in only listening when treats are on offer.

I've been using the TOT (stickied) feeding time as recall training. Built up her impulse control to a point that we could place the dinner at any given distance and trust she would not help herself for a period of time. Would maintain eye contact, and pump out behaviour on cue (drop, sit, spin, paw, target, etc). Had also previously been training her recall with methods described above to the point where she knew what the cue 'come' meant. Started with small distances at dinner and building up. Strong recall and bounces back to her reward. Also use the high value and make games with the wife/kids in the backyard. Call her name and when she's got that stance/look that you're condifent she's going to come drop the cue and wait for arrival. In this we try to hide the reward and only show it once she arrives (not using it to bribe), but I think she adequately knows 'the game'.

Over a month on and I can see our little girl maturing day by day, week by week. She's still highly motivated by treats, but we continue to mix it up. Sometimes we don't have treats and just use toys or praise. Sometimes we have treats and still only use praise. Sometimes she gets lots of tasty treats. Have been busy involving the whole family including the children in the process and it's really positive seeing things progress. Lately have been working on her recall at feeding times, simply by moving behind her to various distances and then calling from there in a very positive tone. She scampers back, bounces off before returning to her starting point to eat. Have been building impulse control at dinner since day one, so obviously built up to here, both with time, distance, and naturally occuring distractions. All the threads I've posted and all the feedback I've received has helped greatly! Thanks everyone!