Erny

I thought you would say that . So that I can be clear with what your word definitions are, would you mind giving me two simple examples of what you would define as Negative Punishment? Did someone say "turkish delight"? yummmm

When your dog "franticly" (or not) offers behaviours, it would be because the dog has learnt that ONE behaviour just might get the reward. Correct? So, with the dog expecting and knowing the reward is on offer, and we don't give it (because the dog hasn't offered the behaviour we, in our minds, want), would you regard that as negative punishment?

Ok - the information that I received suggesting the Bill debate will not take place until the week beginning 7th June could be accurate, but it may be a bit premature. So in the meantime until this is officially confirmed, please presume that the debate can occur this week on any day from tomorrow onwards. BUT please do not think it is too late. Electronic mail is something we can make (and have made) good use of.

That's ok then, so long as you realise that I do not and was not denigrating any one's method. I actually concur with you. I think perhaps in part that negative comments to "positive training" methods aren't really negative to the method itself, but is negative to the people/groups who have pushed it to the point of ad-nausium and who have also, over the years, tried (and in some ways, for some time, succeeded) in making out any one else who believed differently, to be cruel, harsh etc. So please don't take it to heart and be assured that I was not running down positive training. I love positive training .

Continue to 'stand-by' regarding the Bill debate date. Seems we have been given two different responses from two different people within parliament. In the meantime, please treat this as one where there IS still time to get your letters in, but simultaneously treat it as urgent.

One of the pollies have responded to one of my letters informing me that it is his understanding that the Bill, at this stage, is now not being debated in this Parliamentary week. The next sitting of Parliament is in the week commencing 7 June 2010. I'm trying to quantify/confirm the above and I will confirm here as soon as I am able, but it seems we have even more time to generate those letters and NOW is the time to do it. Keep it up right up until the last.

I wouldn't suggest otherwise,RnL. I don't think I've seen you denigrating or scoffing at other training methods, either . I wasn't sure if the above was a response to my post.

Ah yes .... I remember that Survey and I did participate in it. I would have thought that if the BAW were remotely interested, they would be able to source the info via FOI in the same way we can. Most likely, if they wanted it, they wouldn't have to pay like we do. It would DEFINITELY be interesting to know the results of the survey. But $500 is a lot of money and I'd hate for you to have spent that for information that's not helpful. But I know from past experience also that sometimes that's a punt we need to take.

Don't know, I'm sorry. But without looking it up, I know that I did send to at least one (I think both) of those people and did not receive any error messages. Maybe it was just a glitch.

I had a plumber put hot and cold water tap fittings to the exterior vertical 'wall' of my outdoor decking. I use a hose and wash my dog either just while he's standing on the lawn or if the ground is likely to get too muddy, then I get him to stand in a clam shell pool. I don't suds my dog with shampoo as I don't think that really helps their skin, but if he's taken a dip in the local man-made lake, I like to get the smelly water and smell out of his coat, so I just use plain water. The used water goes to the lawn so this method is especially good in the hotter, drier weather. I don't do this outside when it is too cold weather wise. If I do need to bath him (eg. Full calendula tea wash) I put some water in the bath tub (non-slip mats at the base) and just bath him over in that. I have used the rubber hose shower attachment to rinse, but the shape of my taps don't allow it to stay on, so I have to hold it in place with one hand, hold my dog in place with the other and somehow manouver the shower attachment over the dog with the other (3rd?) hand, LOL. I sometimes instead use an icecream container to pour over to rinse. Most of the time I don't need to rinse though, because of the fact that I don't use shampoos. More cleaning up though, using the bathroom .

My highlights. LOL .... similar here, JulesP. Some people run down methods/tools using the "old fashioned" type speech, as though "old fashioned" is bad or something to be scoffed at just because it has been around for decades and might not be the flavour of the month for a number. I've seen the term "old fashioned" used in negative context to describe some methods by those who don't like or agree with them quite a lot in a UK dog forum to know that this terminology can be used in a propaganda type sense. Always strikes me as some sort of 'argument' when the arguer hasn't got much in the way of good reasons to debate. . There is a reason why things stay around long enough to become "old fashioned" . Besides, training shouldn't be about fashion or trend. It should be about what works best for the dog and dog-owner.

That's what I'm saying (sort of). That it's not just about undershot or overshot. Either of those could be absent. I just didn't want the OP to believe/presume from what is being said that the point of focus is only undershot/overshot.

Imwvic .... I'm trying to back track to where you first brought up about "that" government survey but (probably because I'm in a hurry) can't find it. If you have referenced to it because someone else brought it up, I can't back track (without wading through posts) because you've not quoted who or what you are responding to. I'm trying to recall what the survey was about. Contrary to the perception of its name, getting information via "Freedom of Information" is not "free" and depending on how much there is in the documents, it can cost a fair amount to obtain it. When I was working on the PPCollar campaign in the early days, I think it cost me a good couple of hundred dollars to obtain a copy of the info from "Freedom of Information" department that I initially needed. If the contents of the survey would help to lend weight to what we are trying to achieve here, then acquiring the info from Freedom of Information may well be worthwhile. It takes a while to get so if it could be useful, it might be wise to spend this time organising that, rather than the possibility of getting in sufficient time for any benefit being thwarted due to Government pushing Bill/s through faster than we are able to keep up with.

But that's the undershot/overshot jaw 'problem', isn't it? At one stage in his early life, my boy's growth rate affected his jaw and ergo his teeth alignment. It was only out marginally though and his lower jaw and upper jaw caught up with each other fairly soon. But this "converging canines" sounds very, very different.

Futuredogtrainer - you have acquired valuable knowledge at the 'paws' of your two dogs. IE That one method does not work for all dogs. Some people who have experience with only a very small number of dogs might use a method that they prefer and because it works for them, they are unable to imagine the different dogs (and different problems) there are around where the dogs can be very resistant to "a" particular method (or even some particular training tools/aids). And so they herald their preferred method (and/or tool) and often actively resist, argue and pooh hoo other methods (and/or tools) which are less to their liking. As a "future dog trainer" you will learn that the (IMO) best approach is an open-mind and to explore each dog for the individual that it is. And you've already learned this by such a small sample of dogs. They teach us much, heh?

Would it be right to show a dog who has had corrective surgery for something that (by the sounds of it .... please refer my post above) is heritable?

I've heard of "undershot" and "overshot" jaws, but never heard of "converging canines". So I googled. Came up with THIS article and was interested to read that : Apparently the article comes out of an old version of "Dog World" from somewhere, but was republished in a publication called "Quinlent" as recently as this month. As I mentioned, I'd not heard of this condition myself until it was raised in this thread, and I am by no means knowledgeable about breeding Staffies, but going by the above it would sound that converging canines is a heritable condition rather than a developmental issue, so I'd be really concerned if the puppy already had converging canines. But that's just me and I would suggest that these are my "thoughts" ..... as I do not believe they would qualify as "opinion".

Thanks Arrow. The more letters to the more MP's/MLA's (lower house) and MLC's (upper house) the better.

You just need to click on an unlit candle and follow the instructions. What unlit candle where?? I've been clicking on candles but nothing happens (except maybe for some pictures that then come up as enlargements )

I am so relieved and delighted to hear the latest update on Jed .............. Go Jed . Take your time, of course - concentrate on recovering. But sooooo looking forward to hearing from you.

Link is fixed. Same link as before. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Response to Bill

I'm curious. If they don't like their ears being in the snoods, what's the point of a snood?

Ok - I'm on to it. Will enquire to see what's up. Stay-tuned. Thanks for letting me know. I missed your post, ZA. So thanks also to A&J for re-posting it.

I use both. Often luring first as this gives the dog the idea of what you want and can help remove that "help!! what are you trying to do!! resistance/panic response. But I like to introduce a combo and then GSP only. Which means the dog will learn each, singularly and a combo. Shaping I will use if necessary. Teaches the dog to follow the hand and also teaches the dog it's ok to be 'put'. What I actually use to teach the exercise depends on the dog and what works best for it. I don't think there's a "this method is faster learning than the other" factor, simply because it does depend on the dog you're working with at the time.

Hi Yashi The short answer to your question is that "it depends on the dog". Naturally you need to be confident about the person who will be working with your dog and also with the kennel management and staff who will be interacting with your dog in the day to day care of your dog. In some of the consults I have done, or at training classes we run, I've been asked the same question as you have asked. To some people my answer is that I think the kennel stay is going to be too overwhelming for the dog. For some others, the kennel stay (and the training) can help some dogs move on, upwards and past their fears/shyness, and help to increase confidence. But I can only assess that if I've seen the dog. It depends on the extremes of anxiety. For anyone to be able to give you a proper idea, we'd be needing to meet with your dog. Some of the ones I have done, we've started with an introductory "day care" stay. It's given us and the kennels a chance to see how the dog settled over that day and an idea of how well the dog would cope with a longer stay.