Erny

I agree - IMO also, its use is so that it can be used in conversation without having to go into bucket loads of explanation each time. Although for the efficiency of this to occur, both the speaker and the listner (or writer and reader, as the case may be) has to know and understand the quadrant. For this reason, I disagree with Ian Dunbar. However, if he means that he is anti-talking quadrant with/to the basic novice person/client who just wants to train their own dog and doesn't need to converse in the 'science' of it, then I agree. I don't go around explaining P+, P-, R- to my clients. Although they readily understand R+ (knowing it as simply "reinforcement") most of the time, even if they don't understand the timing or application of it. Knowing the quadrants, and others knowing/understanding the quadrants, makes it easier to explain to someone who also understands it, how to use training tools, for example. You can more easily tell someone you (eg) use a head collar in 'this particular' instance using R-. Or you use an e-collar utilising R-. Or in some special instances, as P+. Makes for much more condensed transfer of information. I understood the point Midol was making. But that doesn't separate the different ways both punishment and reinforcement can be used. But I agree, if you don't understand it and don't need to the world doesn't stop turning. It's just that it is handy and can make a clearer distinction when thinking about what you're doing and why or more particularly how it is working (or not).

Gabe probably wants what Bud is on .... Seriously though, I am still thinking of you and Bud and will be keeping fingers crossed for Thursday that everything shows up clear. I hope it is just a tummy bug that he has. Did he eat today?

Sometimes (eg. once or twice a day, depending on the heat factor and whether I feel my dog needs more hydration) I will mix it with water. But only use a small amount of water (the quantity you would want your dog to drink in one go) as you'll find your dog will love it and will drink for the taste rather than because he needs all that water. I made the mistake of mixing it in too much water one time and it caused my dog to pee a lot and frequently .... not great when you're house training!!! . I wouldn't give it in water directly before bed time for this reason . My boy enjoys licking it off his (own) spoon in between times. When my boy was showing the coughing symptom and sore throat, I dosed (good sized teaspoon at a time) about 3 times a day. Maybe an extra one here and there to ease the cough itself, if it started up. That was only for the first couple of days. Even though his symptoms (coughing/sore throat) disappeared inside 24 hours, I dosed him 2 x daily pretty much for the rest of the week.

If you can, try to get the Active Manuka Honey from a health food shop. Some supermarkets might sell it, but I'm not so sure it would be the quality stuff. It can be pricey, but IMO well worth it. I always have a jar of it in the pantry. It lasts forever (as in storage) and I use it for myself either when I think a cold or sore throat is coming on; digestive upset; or just feeling a little 'off'. I use it the same with my dogs. If I expect my dog has to undergo anything that might be stressful, I dose him up beforehand, just to give his system that extra boost. And we both love it . Yum. . VJB ... hope your friend's dog is ok. Sounds to me as though secondary complications set in. I've not heard of dogs being put under sedation for Cough though, nor for secondary complications. But that's only my experience.

It sounds more like something's simply irritating his nose. Could be dust; grass particles and such like. Especially with the weather so dry ... it's turning so many things to dust. (Particularly Adelaide ... add to that the fires you've had etc.) Keep an eye on it though, as it could also represent as a grass seed up his nose and that sort of thing requires to be removed by a Vet. So if he keeps sneezing/snorting frequently over the next day or so, a trip to the Vet might be in order. Runny nose (clear) is not something by itself I'd be too concerned about, so long as it wasn't overly excessive. A DOLer here (can't remember who) said to put your flat of hand against the dog's nose (don't smother) for a moment - I do this and it does work to stop the backward sneezing 'fits' they seem to sometimes have. What you describe doesn't sound like Canine Cough to me. If it did though, IMO a trip to the Vet isn't necessary unless there is a temp or your dog is indicating secondary complications. My youngster had a bout of Canine Cough. I kept him in and quiet and dosed him up regularly and frequently with Active Manuka Honey (which boosts the immune system as well as soothed his sore throat and eased the cough). The cough stopped inside 24 hours and he was as good as gold inside 48 hours. Still, I kept him confined to the house and yard without too much overly active exercise for some time beyond that so that his body had time to fully recuperate and also so that we weren't spreading it around to others. If his signs of cough had not diminished fairly rapidly, then I would have had him to the Vet. Having said that, it wouldn't hurt to give him doses of AMH now. Just in case. Keep an eye on him and avoid stressful activity for the moment.

Did he mention what places/countries he was most needed in?

.... very funny.

Awwwww ..... a lot of people here share and understand your sentiment, Wasserkuhl. Welcome to DOL, but sorry it's to know of a bit of trouble for your boy. Let us know how you get on. There are many of us who would be interested. Even if it is to know that you didn't take up on the procedure for whatever reason. Cheers Erny

Also, you could contact Rebecca. Refer the Regeneus thread in the General forum.

Ooooooh!!! K-i ..... could be that Bud is actually having the time of his life!!!

... I admit that. Someone simply saying "I can do it" doesn't convince me anything. Just as I wouldn't expect anyone to be convinced (enough to take it a step further at least) by me simply saying "I can do it with an e-collar". It's the explanation of the methodology and use of the technique/s behind it. Then exploring it and theoretically applying it to different models/situations etc. And answering questions as to how it might work to those who throw up a twist or a curly. The thing is, with the PP (yep - loose term), it CAN be used. There is no denying that and I don't think anyone does deny it. BUT it is whether it can be used effectively and efficiently to produce the best degree of reliability with every dog, is the point. And the thing is, the PP people (and no, I'll not say you're one as you've expressed you understand the use of aversives where needed, although sometimes some of your posts don't come over that way - but that probably isn't intended) are the ones who 'rule out' the use of physical aversives not matter what, on the basis that they are (eg) 'cruel'. They narrow the field of applied training, yet the pool of dogs out there with issues don't always match up with that narrowed view. I'm not even sure how this discussion evolved to being one that seems to be about PP -vs- balanced (ie pos + neg).

Wow! That was absolutely stunning. I've done dressage comp in my life-time (nothing anywhere near as good as that though) and I can really appreciate how hard the rider is working within himself to achieve the balance and timing that is required to keep the horse collected, forward and under as well as flexed in the appropriate direction. Stunning workout .... and the routine wasn't short either. Makes me miss being in the saddle. Top notch feeling having so much controlled but willing energy and power underneath you. Thanks for posting this link and that of the "Doggy Dance - heel to music". I have seen the latter one before, but enjoyed seeing it yet again. I think my favourite move was the 'back to back'.

LC - I'd recommend you speak with Dr. Bruce Syme. Yes - he produces the product called "Vets All Natural" which I have myself had excellent results with for my previous girl who was also sensitive. But I have found he really knows his stuff when it comes to the canine digestive system. I also found that he won't 'push' his product if he doesn't believe it is the right thing for your dog. He's in Castlemain and although that was at least a 2.5 hour drive from where I am (back then we didn't have the freeway access that we now have, so I expect even a shorter drive time-wise) and when I took my girl to him way back then I felt it was well worth the effort. This, after dotting around other Vets a bit more local than he and not getting anywhere fast - whereas his advice to me was spot on. HERE's a link to some background info on his experience. I haven't got his clinic's phone number at my finger tips, but if you google Vets All Natural I'm pretty sure you'll be able to contact him via their number, if you want to.

That's what I figure too, QAYC. When I'm involved in discussions that I know we've had before, I'm mindful that there's likely to be 'new' people reading. To me, the 'arguments' between people who don't share the same views opens up the 'question board' and leads to the exploration of ideas and understanding that other people might not have done without it. And how much exploration they want to do as a result of reading is completely up to the individual. That's why I think it is great to entertain debates on methodologies and other things pertaining to training and behaviour on-line. It provides a broader base for people to see that there is more 'out there' than they otherwise might have thought.

Must admit that when you wrote in a previous post something along the lines of "you're a busy person" and alluded that you've got better things to do than sit on a computer and 'chat on-line' (not a direct quote but that was the essence of it, I believe), I read it and thought the same as JulesP did. No biggie and I took no real offence as it didn't matter much to me, but it came over to me the same way.

Sorry. I've fixed it so if you really feel it worthwhile looking at (I don't), return to #40. But what you posted was not a link to CM training demo/info .... it was a news report with a voice over which served to discredit, without any explanation of what he was doing or why. I didn't suggest they were. Don't know why you got the impression - it wasn't meant to. It was meant to show that in trying to gather examples of PP training, that's some of what is 'out there'. I mentioned in my post that balanced trainers are and have been made to feel as though they (the trainers) are cruel, wrong, for using aversives ... . What I said above is in context with what I said before it and was in response to you saying that Ian Dunbar says it is not important to convince us of his methods. If they are so right and if the aversives that people such as Ian Dunbar frown upon are so wrong, why wouldn't it be important to convince us? That's what I'm asking.

Yes .... that's on the cards, LL. I'm allowing things to develop, progress and unfold in their own time. I'm not in a hurry. In fact, I recently had a bit of a concern that he might have had a cruciate rupture and began to worry that I might not be able to do the drive work with him (although the Vet specialist said the ops are pretty good and results usually lead to the dog being able to return to usual exercise). Anyway, in those few days that I had to think about things before his appointment with the specialist, I thought if he couldn't continue drive training then perhaps "dancing". We already have some (very rusty) 'steps' going and he really enjoys it. Mind you .... if he grows even a whisker taller than he already is (which is likely), then I'm gunna have to wear platform shoes for those 'weaving' moves . For the most part though and more importantly than anything else, I'm just enjoying what I am doing, as is he. So whilst ob trialling is quite a possibility, it is not a "must do". Oh .... and for the 10/10 for drive? Remember, I haven't fully tested (proofed) him because he's not ready for it. So the 10/10 score is not a good one to hang my hat on atm. He's a RR. I understand that for what I'm doing the breed (generally speaking) doesn't sport the really strong and persistent drives that other breeds and breed lines can and do. I'm therefore taking his training as easy and carefully as I can and I'm spending more time on maintaining and stengthening the drive I've built rather than on the obedience skills he's learnt. He really makes me laugh though .... he's learnt/learning heel 'position' and although it isn't perfect yet, when he realises he's too far out he does a jump/flip to get in snug .... and almost knocks me flying. And a sit from a drop comprises of him leaping into the air first and then coming down into the sit. I dabbled at some scent detection work the other week. Mainly to give him something else for mental stimulation. Have only done it once so I won't say he's anywhere near 'got it'. Much of the time it was a pain in the butt, because if the breeze which came up at the time didn't blow the boxes around, then he'd grab them and run around the yard with them. I'll probably need to work it in my hallway, although it is a narrow hall and he's grown so big there doesn't feel as though there is much room to move. I'll return to that at some other stage.

K-i ... ya gotta meet Cracker. She is literally a crack-up. LL and I laughed so hard at some video footage I took of her other dogs retrieving. Cracker, in the meantime, was weaving in and out of camera range, doin' her thing, almost like she thought she was retrieving, but in "retired" style. I still giggle to myself when I remember it. She is such a sweetheart. Actually, Bud I think would very much like Cracker. Two great 'oldies' .

So far, rating 10 (drive training). Under distraction .... well, that depends on what the distraction is. Generally a "10" but sometimes slipping to a "9" (which for a RR I think is still pretty good). But he's young and the sessions are kept short and I am not at the point of pushing really high distractions at this stage and I use the training that he knows judiciously. As far as chasing the ball is concerned, I'd suggest initially a "10" but he slips down to a "9" pretty quickly. Sometimes (after just a short while and depending on where we are doing this) he'll go hell for leather after the ball, but lose interest when he gets to it and might trot off without it. So I'm not sure how to score that. I guess because he's not bothering to even pick it up on some of those occasions it might score "0" ???

No worries. But you really must learn to not poke your tongue out so often. You'd have heard what can happen when the wind changes ..... ?

Holy toledo LL. When I read the above it frightened the c4#p out of me. Until I read the next bit .... That's still sad, but I was thinking you meant your goldie oldie and was relieved when I realised you didn't. Glad things are ok

Midol - ok. I agree - a problem is not a problem unless it is a problem to the owner, the dog and/or the community. But I'm not sure what brought your post on, or where it is supposed to be going?

Now THAT would put us dog trainers/behaviourists out of commission . I'm sure you'll do well, JulesP. BUT, as I mentioned earlier, sometimes no matter the effort, for some dogs it doesn't happen quite so perfectly and most of the time I have to FIX those problems that others might not have been so vigilant to avoid. And no offense to them ..... sometimes they just haven't realised enough from the beginning and sometimes life just happens.

.... They are too. Well, they'll be sorely disappointed I think .

Ya know we're thinking of you and Bud, K-i. Next thing you'll know you'll be back on this board asking for help to stop Bud from barkin' at the fence . Go Buddy boy! .