Erny

Isn't "defiance" the test ..... and with increased frequency of winning, "dominance" the possible result? From the dictionary : Defiance : 1. open or bold resistance to or disregard for authority, opposition, or power. 2. a challenging attitude or behaviour; challenge. Dominant : 1. having primary control, authority, or influence; governing; ruling. 2. predominant or primary; 3. occupying a commanding position. So, defiance can turn to dominance if the affect of defiance has an influence of control over the actions of the other being.

Start on lead without a bike. Teach "turn left" and "turn right" (I used the words "liberal" and "labour" for my turn commands). Teach "slow down" (I used the word "easy" for this.) Then walk your dog out with a bike. If all ok, try it with you cycling the bike, but slowly. Give your dog sufficient warning that you're going to turn by giving the command a bit sooner than you otherwise might. Remember, the faster you go the more excited your dog might go, so take it steady. I am assuming that your dog already knows not to pull on the lead. With my avatar girl, I didn't bother with treats along the way. Just gave her quiet encouragement. She enjoyed the run in between, so that was enough for her, along with some praise here and there as deserved and when appropriate.

That depends on when you are going away, Mmatsup (welcome to DOL, btw ). No time like the present, as far as I'm concerned. Start it now and continue it from the moment you walk in the door on your return, that way your absence away can work a little like wiping the slate clean and can sometimes take the edge off your change of behaviour (from the dog's pov) and therefore easier to accept.

Very dangerous and deleterious advice given there, APBT.

Perhaps she is being over indulged with your attention? Give her some 'work' to do. For example, follow the TOT progam (sticky at the top of this forum) and also the NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free) program. Essentially the latter is merely about getting HER to do something FOR YOU, before you do something for her. Eg. Meals; treats; play; walks; car rides .... basically, anything that she enjoys. Also, when you return from an absence, avoid her initiating the contact with you .... make it so that YOU initiate the contact with her. IE "Tough Love". It's not necessarily the be all and end all of it, but it can help. Might also help if you contact the original owners and ask them how they interacted with her on a general day to day basis and whether indeed she was left on her own very much at all.

Book me in again, K-i . It's always good to go over things a second time at least, IMO. Standing by .

.... Then I don't know what the person who pulled you up on what you said was talking about. By the above, that is something I would describe as "fear Aggression".

I know who you were :D (although I keep forgetting that this is your DOL user name ). It was good to see you Jane, although the times for 'catch up' were fast .... and I think we all ended up too mind tired to chatter too much the further we got into the weekend LOL.

TOT program and also avoid feeding to an exact schedule.

"Clicker Training" is not a method in itself. All it does is teach the dog a certain 'sound' means "that's the right behaviour, food is following". On its own it will teach your dog what to do, but not what NOT to do. She's 'working' you. What other training do you do, and what is she like with it? What are your 'house rules' and is she generally compliant? Are there are areas where she is really getting her own gains? "NO" is not enough in this situation. What bothers me is the part I've highlighted. She rolls back her gums? Is this more serious than what the path of this thread seems to have taken it? Following the "TOT" program (refer sticky - I think it is at the top of either the training forum or this puppy forum) and also apply NILIF program (Nothing In Life Is Free). I've experienced the "barking when on the phone" behaviour too. Is your pup crate trained? If so it is very useful for those times when you are either about to be on the phone or are on the phone and she starts barking. Don't use it as a punishment as such, just scoot her in the crate without making a fuss. If she continues the barking you can go to another room or outside. The worst thing to do is to give her attention as this is exactly what she wants.

As I was reading through, my thoughts were trained on the fact that your routine was "alarm; let pup out of crate and on to the bed". I was going to post to suggest you change the routine, but reading further, I see you've already caught onto that notion. By letting your pup out of the crate and then giving something as what is likely to be considered a big reward leads to 'anticipation'. The pup of course gets eager for that and wants that big reward sooner and sooner. Same deal with breakfast. So letting your pup out of the crate and simply taking him out to the toilet (doing the usual recommended toileting regime) and then a gap between things such as breakfast will help train him that getting out of the crate isn't necessarily more rewarding than staying there for a while longer, simply because he's not expecting anything. IMO things such as getting on the bed etc. shouldn't be a matter of routine and is best kept to a random schedule. Have days where it doesn't occur at all and when it does, it occurs at different times and ONLY with your chosen "up" command. Make sure you also have an "off" command too and you should teach him that the latter must be observed no matter what.

Absolutely !

Actually, if it exhibits any of the smallest of early warning signs to defensiveness onset I would refer to it as fear aggressive. (Eg. Stillness; still eye; etc.). But if someone describes to me a dog as "fear aggressive" (and assuming they've asked me for opinion), I don't think I tend to pull them up on their description when, after me asking if the dog has actually aggressed towards anyone/animal or appeared threatening, they answer "no". If that person was in a teaching capacity though, I probably would, assuming the opportunity to do so was appropriate.

It's hard, isn't it K-i. The only way your advice can be proven right to anyone risks the potential of you being able to say "I told you so". And yet that is so what we don't want to have to do ..... for the dog's sake. I think you did the right thing. Think of it another way. If you hadn't said anything and the girl went ahead and got the dog ..... and then had problems, she may well be able to say that she spoke to (perhaps even the breeder and) the trainer and wasn't informed to the contrary. In this particular case, the worst that is going to happen is she is likely to get a dog more suitable. Sure, she might regret not getting a mal but further down the track she might, and by then she'll have developed some handling/training skills and will be wiser to what having a dog really means, which means her decision AND her ability will be all the better for the preparedness another more appropriate breed will grant her.

I 'categorise' fearful behaviour as "fear aggression" mainly because I will 'treat' it similarly and because it has the potential to escalate to aggression in a heart beat. I don't tend to use the same description as your 'friend' suggested and if I'm talking to colleagues simply describing the dog as "fearful" is (IMO) generally sufficient for them to understand the dog as one who has not exhibited aggression yet but has the very real potential to do so. If I'm not talking to people who I think would otherwise know, I do explain the dog's fear can very easily lead to aggression (and this is what we don't want because ..... blah, blah, blah). But if a dog is fearful yet has only exhibited flight rather than fight, I generally would not describe it to someone as being "fear aggressive" as this would IMO paint the wrong or at least inaccurate picture. When you use the word "aggressive" it depicts a dog who has gone into a defensive emotion.

See post above yours PF.

Now, back to Reality (no pun intended ). How's it been going for you? It's only been a short time so perhaps you haven't had a chance to put into place a training regime yet. But if you have, please come back to let us know what you're doing and how it is progressing .

Kavik ..... I often enjoy your posts .

I'd sit through another of her seminar/workshops .

.... I think he's excited and very pleased with the success he's been having by training with its use. Note to Midol .... Midol, please follow up such of your posts with some explanation to show that the e-collar is best used under the supervision of a trainer (who understands them). Kavik is right in one sense, and that is that there are so many clubs and groups who 'deny' them and as such won't extend themselves to learn of them. Hence many wouldn't be able to explain how to use them. So whilst your recommendation has merit, someone picking up on that and going elsewhere for instruction might be met with surprising resistance and mis-information. Kavik .... I could see your frustration - you explained it. At least you weren't offensive with it.

Kavik and PDT .... it is true that this thread was not intended by the OP to be a pro/anti e-collar discussion. The only thing that really brought it to be that were the "anti" comments (especially by PDT) which by the emotive words against the tool itself as well as disparaging to Midol painted the e-collar to "anyone reading" a bad picture. If those comments were written differently, then for the sake of clarifying to "anyone reading" that it was not across the board agreed upon that the e-collar is a bad or ineffective tool was felt necessary. There is enough misconception/misunderstanding of the e-collar, without it being spread further by disparaging remarks that might allude to that conclusion by the reader. There are trainers who would be considered predominantly "positive" but who also recognise the value of the good use of an e-collar. In all the years of training I've not come across anyone who has purchased an e-collar and trained with it without some tuition. Not saying there aren't any, only that I've not seen or heard. And I agree, there are many who aren't up for the expense of the e-collar and training. That shouldn't in itself preclude the mention of the e-collar. At least then people know it to be a very viable option. It is then up to them should they wish to follow it through. And in all the many other threads that have mentioned training tools .... not everyone who mentions a martingale; head collar; check chain; harness; or other style of management/training tool follows on with an explanation on how to use them and whilst some will follow up with a post on the "how to's", the first person to mention them is generally not shot down for the fact they mentioned it without the training explanation to follow. If neither are against the good use of an e-collar, all that needed to be mentioned was a follow up post expressing your opinion on them being used under instruction of a trainer but that other methods to solidify basic training of the recall and a 'relationship' check might assist in sending the OP in the right direction, or a direction that suits her.

No .... none of the quotes I posted from yours had anything or much to do with the e-collar. I guess what it did favour though is to show that comments you made were incorrect or in cases at best, somewhat (as K9 put it) "soap-boxish" with seemingly irrelevance to the OP's problem. As for commenting on the rest of your post, I think K9 has done that pretty well. In response to Midol merely saying to the OP that in his experience the e-collar works the best for recalls (especially for dogs that have had the opportunity to learn they don't always have to recall) you asked him was he "taking the piss" and suggested he get a gold fish. None of that was helpful to the OP or to anyone else reading. It was not only irrelevant, it was rude, offensive and arrogant IMO and to me only reveals a lack of your understanding of the e-collar and of the many successes good work with the e-collar has achieved. If you only know of 2 people who use the e-collar properly, then I can only think you travel in small circles.

I'm not big on 'squirting' pups (or dogs for that matter) for so many little things. When my boy was in his early weeks he was really BIG on chewing shoelaces. Seemed to me that all I ever did was clean up pee and poo and tie my shoe laces :D. I sprayed my shoelaces with a commercial product made for 'chewers'. It was a natural based substance. Forget what it's called (and being lazy by not getting up to go look for it, not sure where it is as I haven't used it for months) but it was something along the lines of "bitter lime" or some such. You do need to keep 'reloading' BEFORE the taste wears off, as pup will come back for another try thinking the bad taste might have been a 'one-off' thing. Let me know if you need me to, and I'll look up the name of it if I can. It worked pretty well on a number of things (eg. the beginnings of chewing his outdoor wooden kennel) and I think will with most pups so long as you're onto it quickly. If my shoes weren't being worn, I made sure pup simply couldn't get to them so he's not developed the habit of that. He can see them though. I still tend to have a barrier to stop him getting to that corner of the wardrobe, but I have had the barrier down and he's paid no interest. He's 8 months old now.

Ok .... who here were at the Brenda Aloff's seminar this past few days? I didn't stop to ask "who was a DOLer" .... and now I'm curious. It was an absolutely fantastic weekend. A tonne of info from Brenda, combined with a "show and tell" of HOW to apply behaviour modification and training exercises. Trish (Kelpie-i) along with Dale (Kepala) did an awesome job of making the days run smoothly, having everyone feel very welcome and 'at home' .... and keeping us fed to over full with great food (yum!! .... more devonshire teas, please - shame there weren't any scones, cream and jam left over, or I would have absconded with a plate of them all for myself :D). Brenda was entertaining, a lovely person and the days were over before you knew it. I can't believe that a whole 4 days have gone by so quickly. Thank you Trish and Dale for making the weekend with Brenda possible and of course Brenda, for sharing your boundless knowledge with us. And also thank you to the group who were there - they were a really good 'bunch' and asked some really good questions. Oh ..... and I can't forget Laura - thank you to you and your lovely folks for having me over for dinner, which was very morish, to say the least. Hhhmmm .... could have done a doggy bag for that too .

Think about how much mental stimulation she is getting, rather than how much walking. Physical exercise doesn't necessarily equate to mental exercise, so a dog could have been running for an age, but still seeking to satiate the mental energy it still retains. Training; socialisation (to new/novel things); tricks and other 'problem solving' activities all help with this. Just food for thought.