Erny

I get what you are saying K-i .... what genetics do you think the art of scenting (which we've enhanced by breeding for that as a specific 'talent') relates to?

I don't think there's anything wrong with Midol exploring the possibilites, even if it means that PP proves to not be the way to go for protection training. But it would have been nice if his OP didn't come across as more a beating around the ears than a genuine interest question. Come on, Midol. Where's the apology? :rolleyes:

Ooooh ... I feel somewhat put in my place too :rolleyes:. Although I wasn't really saying the dogs pull to survive as such.

Without researching it specifically, I would expect it is a survival reflex. We have it too (think of someone grabbing you to drag you off somewhere .... your instinct would be to pull against them). Some dogs are more 'yielding' than others. That's what made me wonder if sibes are particularly more likely to brace against pressure than they would yield to it.

Does 'opposition reflex' have anything (even a small part) to do with the pulling? I wonder if sibes are more sensitive to it (generally speaking). Not to the exclusion of their genetic trend for running of course.

Having you been working the "TOT"? If not, then I'd recommend it. If you have, then start generalising with the areas that you work it in and then add more distractions as he improves with maintaining focus. Stand for exam ..... once done, low level release and walk him away from the 'judge'. Once ok with that, have 'judge' take one step back, one forward, one back, one forward. Diesel to remain in stand. Don't have 'judge' handle/touch him at this point. The number of repetitions will depend on Diesel's performance. Once ok, the 'judge' will do the same, but this time turn and one step away, then turn around and once step back. You can progress with this as you see fit (dependant upon Diesel's behaviour). Make 'judge' boring. No hands on at this point. I now note TSD has mentioned about sending away for the food reward. That is basically "TOT", but after the basics have been taught.

I thought that at first too, but have a closer look ..... I could be wrong, but it didn't look as though the dog was holding the two sleeves. . If he wasn't, I'm not sure what the point of the extra sleeve was. Watching the GSD and some of the other dogs ..... they seemed to be doing the 'job' but didn't look to me as though they really 'meant' it. How strong would they be in the advent of receiving aversives (as I would expect they would with a real life crim). ??? ETA: Midol .... your OP was somewhat strong and demanding. I don't think you meant it that way, but 'tone' in the written word is often lost unless the right words are chosen.

If the odour is paired with a correction, then that's what the dog would perceive the odour as ..... something negative. So I just don't see it. Won't be using that method myself though, the way I see it.

Thank goodness!! I'm so pleased to hear this, K-i. If it were me, I'd be having a refreshing and deserved alcoholic drink about now .

Yep - I'd consider this too.

Yeah - I getcha, but if you have interpreted it properly, I still think it is wrong and I'd caution anyone about doing it. Because the odour is still going to be there when the dog isn't pulling.

I agree with him on this. I am often explaining/pointing out to my clients that their lead is merely an extension of whatever tool it is attached to; that it is something with which to transfer information to the dog and secondly that the owner can become even more reliant on the lead than dogs.

Perhaps I'm not understanding this, but if you pair the correction with the odour and then keep the odour on the dog's normal flat collar, then the dog would (assuming the pairing is complete) assume it is being corrected no matter what behaviour it is showing, even if it is a good behaviour.

This boils down to the methodology of training used. Correct methodology coupled with the good use of an e-collar in these instances can and does make all the difference.

That's what I thought (or possibly put something 'out') when I read your OP. IMO, unless the cruciate was already damaged, what he did shouldn't have been enough for the cruciate to simply rupture so easily. Hope it does prove to simply be a sprain.

They are remedial classes designed for dogs that have dog/dog aggression issues but they are not for dogs that are really dangerous. Although not labled as "growl classes" ADT ran these/similar for quite some time at their various centers.

Midol .... the words were that he (Ian) has only MET one or two people who know how to use them, not that there are ONLY 1 or 2 people .... Ya gotta be careful about reading things properly and not twisting them around.

If the behaviour is such that it might require medical intervention for a while until behaviour modification techniques start to have effect, then someone like Dr. Robert Holmes or Dr. Debbie Calnon might be the people your friend needs to consult with. I like to avoid the use of drugs if at all possible, but some times it is not. Also, has your friend had blood work-up and physical done? Going by the 'tone' of your post this dog's behaviour sounds somewhat extreme (is it???) and therefore this might be a good place to start. I can't tell anything as there has been no description included in the OP so subject to that, I'd also suggest a FULL blood panel thyroid test. This is not done here - we don't have the labs for it. It might not even be necessary, but as a description of what the dog is like in temperament and other info is missing and I don't know the dog, I can't tell on way or the other. How far is your friend prepared to go? Is she willing to put the work in to cure/manage the behaviour? Does she WANT to help fix these issues? I don't mean that in anyway to sound derogatory to your friend. It's just that it is always necessary to know whether the dog's owner is going to be willing to work with a behaviourist to help the dog and as your friend is not the one posting, that is hard to tell.

I won't say it shouldn't be taught, but I will say that I prefer to build up on the position (be it for example sit or drop) first. Sit in front. Sit at side. Sit at other side. Sit when in the back yard. Sit when in the front yard. Sit when out. Sit with some distractions. Sit whenever. I also like to work on the speed of the sit (ie command response). When all of that is happening (with sit and with drop) then I would be more inclined to be concerned about adding distance. This is generally speaking. ETA: I have found with my current boy that his stay work is happening naturally. He well and truly knows that sit means sit until released. He was already used to me adding in the distraction of movement. And he was already used to me doing little dances (Balabanov style ). So when I added in a bit of distance, he didn't seem to blink an eye. It truly was no big deal.

Fingers crossed. Speaking to Kelpie-i tonight. Bud ate his dinner last night and his breakfast this morning. Not back to normal, but looking better overall. He's put back on a kilogram. K-i is still having the ultra sound done tomorrow just to check.

Aside from 'type' of collar ..... have you worked out (with the help of BB or not) what the 'cause' of your little dog's barking is? Always important to address this IMO. No point putting a bandaid on an infected wound unless the infection itself is treated.

I agree, PF. I've been to two or three of his seminars and from that gathered that he will give a dog a physical correction where warranted. Do you mean HE is thinking about using e-collars (as per your quote above) or are you saying that he says at seminars that they might be used for certain types of behaviour modification. I have heard the latter. If he is talking about (he himself) using them or advocating them he might find himself kicked off the APDT membership though.

Agree with Kavik. Your friend's dog needs desensitisation, coupled with training for an alternative behaviour. I would urge your friend to get some one-on-one help with this. If all the behaviour is barking and lunging without escalating beyond that good results with some professional tuition can often be seen fairly quickly. But of course that's difficult to tell one way or the other without first seeing the dog. Taking a dog to class to 'fix' the problem isn't what I usually recommend. Classes provide a controlled environment, true, and are a good place to go when you've reached the stage that your dog is likely to cope, however the usual and best strategy is to keep the intensity of your behavioural training low, so that the dog learns she can cope and is not overfaced and therefore overwhelmed by it all (in which case not much if any learning occurs, other than to further ingrain the unwanted behaviour). Obedience assists in behavioural modification, however by itself it doesn't do much. A dog isn't likely to sit or drop if it is dead scared of something and feels it needs to defend itself.

Thank you for posting that up, Astrobella. And thank you to Dr. Jean Dodds, for once again spending her time by giving her opinion. No - it is of no surprise what she has said, but due to me not being a Vet there is always room for doubt and I like that to be removed one way or the other. Of course, we don't vaccinate for rabies as they need to do in the USA and other areas, so that part is not a concern to us. Please let us know how you get on at your Vet's and also how your pup progresses.

I'm not a fan of the citronella collars. Citronella is a toxic and some dogs are more sensitive to it than others .... this has caused major reactions to them and I believe in a number of cases, death. Seems that your boy isn't one of those. But that aside, think of this .... The smell of Citronella is an aversive to the dog. That's why it is used. To make the act of barking unpleasant. Sounds pretty much what you want. EXCEPT, that the Citronella, which is oil based, stays on the dog's coat after it has been sprayed and therefore after the dog has stopped barking. Which means the dog continues to receive an aversive (albeit a lesser aversive than the actual moment of spray) even when he is behaving well. Contact K9 Force and ask him for the best size/type collar for your dog. He sells them.