Erny

Sandgrubber ..... I'm so sorry - your thread seems to have veered off course somewhat and I am certainly a contributor to that happening. If you would prefer, and if people want to keep discussing along the lines that we are, I'm happy if you'd prefer a new thread be started so that this thread might return to topic?

Yep. And that's fair enough. I was only joshing on it as I probably consider it a real problem either. The effort, time and trouble to fix the issue simply wouldn't be worth it, most likely. Yep - I understand. I would most likely do the same if I had an issue with it.

Yes, and that's a good and possible aim too. But not with all dogs. The other thing is that people such as myself, Cosmolo, Kelpie-i and K9Force are called upon to FIX problems that are already created, already learnt. So by that point, it's not about aiming so the dog "doesn't know how to .....".

No worries. Thanks for pointing out your concern. If we didn't know better, your point would have possibly diverted us from making an error. ETA: Hope that sentence doesn't sound as supercilious as it does when I read it back to myself. Didn't mean it to.

Kavik - it's about the training with it that I'd do at home (no distractions) first that would make that differentiation. And the distractions would be added in on a low intensity basis.

.... but that doesn't solve the "won't recall" problem does it? It's a 'management' strategy. Honestly - I'm not being serious here, because if the dogs are in your back yard, who cares? And if they don't get their bath, it wouldn't exactly be disastrous or life quality diminishing. Unless they stunk so much they lost their 'indoor' privileges .

I differ somewhat. Sure - life or death. But also life quality. I also see an e-collar for some dogs as actually kinder than having a dog pull like a steam train in a flat collar. Remember, I'm talking about how I use the e-collar (stims as low as a tingle and up to the equivalent of what the dog might perceive as a flea bite). I also like to be able to give a dog the freedom of a run off lead and in different/varying and interesting environments. Not just, say, down at KCC Park off-lead yard (which is very handy to have available for use, but becomes somewhat boring if that's the only place a person can let their dog run free). Simultaneously, I love the "drive training" work I'm doing with my youngster. Although I'm working on it, I do feel though that I'm going to need the back up of the e-collar (using it as I've mentioned) for teaching self-control in high distraction areas ie dog/dog. Not yet. But maybe some time.

I notice that too and is why it can be really difficult to provide tips/answers via the internet, or refrain from going too far with advice without seeming as though you're trying to keep secrets. There is one thing that I think everyone DOES agree on (PP or 'Balanced' Trainers) and that is one should not give advice over the net when the issue relates to aggression. ..... So .... whatcha gunna do about THAT? (Joking)

I hadn't heard that one.

Great post, JulesP. I really enjoy discussing stuff with people who sport this attitude. In another forum, some people are so against (eg) e-collar use (even when used on a low stim/neg ref basis) and caused so much havoc that it destroyed 'conversation' and threads, that a separate sub-forum was created so that those who wanted to learn about the good use of e-collar training could do so without interuption. That's great, except I love conversing with others who don't necessarily share my pov. Talking with the converted is not exactly unpleasant, but you don't learn too much if you are discussing methodology point of views.

I have read numerous posts/threads in another forum, many of which express distress at not being able to reliably recall their dogs, even when much of the PP training the dog has received has been expressed/described. The 'solutions' (loose term) I have commonly read from PP'rs is to keep the dog on a lead unless they can find a fenced in area to run their dogs. When a PP method has been tried and tried well, IS that really the only solution they can or will offer? I'm not trying to be smart here ..... I sincerely do not understand the sentiment.

Fair enough JulesP. The only thing I'd like to do is quantify "hammering". I agree that no-one should be beaten down provided they are reasonable in return. And it certainly shouldn't turn personal from either 'court'. But if "hammering" means "don't argue with me; don't question the method" then I wouldn't be able to guarantee to comply .

I'd like to see (unedited) video footage of "red-zone" dogs being rehabilitated using only the positive methods that Ian Dunbar and others prescribe. Even for some of the not so "red-zone" dogs. I often don't or can't get answers from PP's of "what they would or might do when" (giving fairly curly situations). I've asked and the question is either skirted around or, as in one instance at a "PP seminar", was told "that's a subject for another seminar". I've been waiting for that seminar ever since (ie years). I love using positives. It makes me feel good. Sure as eggs makes me feel less "guilty" which is what I sometimes end up feeling when amongst a crowd of PP's who suggest ANYTHING else is cruel (even though I know that one or more of those people use corrections themselves when they think it is necessary). These are some of the links to video footage that have been put up .... but surely there's got to be far better, because in my opinion, these are exta-ordinary low quality and on the most basic of things .... How to Teach a Border Collie Their Name Determine If Your Dog Is Too Nervous to Train (BTW the fellow in this video is wrong .... horses are traditionally worked on the handler's right; dogs on the left, but that's besides the point) If the use of aversives is cruel, wrong and so on and so forth, why wouldn't it ever NOT be important to convince us? I'd like to be convinced, because I feel nicer using positives than I do including aversives in training. But what I feel and what's best for the dog in its circumstances isn't always the same thing.

Wow! I think discussing and debating things (on-line or not) is one excellent way to learn. No-one says there has to be a "winner" in a debate or discussion or for that matter, an argument. Both 'sides' can learn from the different views expressed. It doesn't mean they have to 'cross over'. TBH, what Ian Dunbar has said (going by your post) sounds more like a cop-out to me. Similar to his line relating to an article he wrote on adopting adult dogs from shelters (and dealing with problematic behaviours that come with them) ..... "The best time to adopt an adult dog is as a puppy". I can't put my hands on the actual edition of the APDT newsletter that article was written in/for, so I need to include a disclaimer that my quote might be a bit 'off', although I think it is accurate. Sorry Anita, but if I were you and Ian's advice to "not discuss things with trainers online as it's worse than pointless" is the "best thing" I got out of the Dunbar conference, then I'd not be very satisfied and would probably want my money back.

Kelpie-i was still very worried about Bud last night as he still wouldn't eat, but I've heard this morning that he has now eaten some food (rice) and managed to hold it down. When she let her other dogs out for a run one of them ran to the fence and had a bark (normal) and Bud decided he'd get up, go out and have a bit of a sniff around .... and a bark .... too . He's still not 100% and Kelpie-i is going to follow through with an ultra-sound just to make sure there's nothing sinister, but it would certainly seem at the moment that there's been some improvement. Let's hope it is simply a gastro episode, which tbh wouldn't be surprising given the hot days and nights we've recently endured.

People who have seen good behaviourists 'at work' or have heard of and been recommended them via reliable sources don't usually worry about papered credentials either. "Celebrities" are those whose work is seen. People already have some knowledge of what they do and how they do it. It's the behaviourists who are new to people where they will often be asked about their background experience and knowledge. There are many of such people (who ring up 'blind') and having some reputable formal training in the field helps to a point, given that any joe blow could hang up the "behaviourist" shingle on their front door.

You use "Delta" don't you? Just curious .

My highlights Difficult to tell you exactly what to try as I don't know your dog. But definitely be consistent and insistent in having him observe the 'rules'. Be aware of whether it seems he is being reinforced by your attention for doing the wrong things. Personally, I don't use the water spray "therapy" (so to speak) but that's not to say I haven't suggested its deployment to help others in certain situations. As to what you use depends on your dog. Whatever you do or use, it needs to be something the dog doesn't want or dislikes. For example my boy is showing he really dislikes my disapproval. I use "disapproval" judiciously, so I don't 'wear it out'. It's a very handy and simple thing to be able to use, so I use it carefully. He knows I don't like him bringing bones into the house. He does 'try it on' a bit, but he knows I will tell him to take it outside (and I make him go .... no question). I don't use my hands on him for this (this could prove too much like "attention" if I did even if it was necessary). I give him "the look" (LOL) and he knows I mean it. He has a choice. Be outside with the bone or leave the bone outside and come back in. That much is up to him, but I do not permit him to bring the bone inside without some reprimand. In this case the reprimand is my tone of voice "outside with that bone!!!" or "get out!!" if he's pushing the point too far. When he was a pup, he could see where things such as my shoes were but if he could get access it was only when I was right there to prevent it. For him a verbal coinciding with a hand to gently stop him was enough for him to learn I didn't want him to touch them. In the interim I kept a step stool there that stopped him. My slippers ..... well, they still sit up on a shelf instead of where my other shoes are as these are just toooooo tempting at this stage. If he were to be insistant on grabbing things he should not though I'd be inclined to command him to something else. For example a stern "go to your mat!". A reasonable pause and then a "go and get Shrek" (or whatever other toy). In this way he is having to think and do. That he was on his mat first means he was doing nothing wrong so he's not rewarded by my next action, which is attention for going to get Shrek. That he went to get Shrek follows the NILIF (he had to go get him before I would give him full interaction). Basically, just let him know you mean what you say and you insist on it. No two ways about it. Behind all that, have the knowledge that his teeth might be causing him a small amount of irritation and/or that he is bored, and work to provide him with an avenue where either of those two things (or both) can be satisfied, but in a manner that can't be perceived by him as a reinforcement for his earlier unwanted behaviour.

Kelpie-i is going to call the Vet soon to see if she can pick her boy up from them soon. Looking forward to and hoping for some good news and results from the blood tests that have been taken. Good luck, Trish and Bud !! Hope all proves well for the ol' (but spunky) codger . ETA: Honestly, this guy is 15 years old but absolutely great for his age .... you wouldn't know him to be the years that he is.

Yep. That's the one. Apart from appreciating her knowledge, experience and expertise, I really like the lady - she seems to me to be straight up and all for the dogs. She generally responds to emails in really great time too so if you do email expect a response within 24-72 hours. That's been my experience. Great person, IMO, as she must spend a great deal of time corresponding with people such as myself with no $$$ in it for her. Yep it can be tough. All we can do is weigh things up, cull and sift through some info and then make decisions on what seems wise at the time. You're welcome Astrobella. Please know though that I'm genuinely interested and would really appreciate knowing what Dr Jean Dodds has to say in response to any communications from her to your email/s. Would you mind either re-visiting here or at least PMing me with details of what she thinks? :D Really wish for you the best of luck but do come back here and keep us informed of your dog's progress. Cheers Erny

I don't think I "think" about it so much as I am always "aware" or "conscious" of it. Being aware of training phase/level and frequency of reinforcement and working to extend that out more and more. Also keeping randomisation in mind as well. Watching how training is going and adjusting accordingly.

We really can't help you too much over the net because this behaviour, as you're already aware, has the very real potential to go off the rails in a direction we definitely don't want it to go. I would stop having other people food treat your dog though. The problem with doing so is that your dog is not necessarily being rewarded for the right behaviour, and in fact it sounds to me as though this is definitely the case. Your dog should be rewarded for confident behaviour. Sounds to me as though your dog is still feeling (and exhibiting) fearful/timid behaviour at the time of being able to receive and eat the treat. YOU be in charge of treats. YOU reward your dog for confident/calm approaches to others (always rewarding for the most confident she is capable of). Use a marker word as a bridge. (Eg "good") Encourage her back to you and treat. In this way she learns what behaviour receives the treat and she receives and eats the treat whilst being back with you and therefore feeling more confident. Also, don't wait until she decides she has to 'retreat' from other people. Allow her a small moment and encourage her back to you before she shrinks away from them of her own accord. BUT, you and your dog would fare much better with some professional one-on-one help. From what I have heard of others, BB is not necessarily the best place to go. Much depends on the expertise of the franchise owner and whether his/her knowledge and experience extends well beyond the teachings the BB franchise arrangements provide. If you are really and truly stuck, PM me providing me with some more detailed background (age; socialisation experience; etc) and I'll see if I can help you with some more 'tips' (which is what they can only be because I can't observe you and your dog myself). Erny

Astrobella .... I'm not a Vet and certainly in no position to formerly advise you, but I'd be strongly suggesting you do some really good research and ask around before you go ahead with another vaccination. Your pup has had 2 vaccs and IMO and from what I have read, that is often sufficient for cover. My boy had 2 x C3's and that was it for his puppy vaccination regime. I would never give a dog a vaccination when there is the complication of another illness. Perhaps send an email to Dr. Jean Dodds - Vet in the USA highly regarded for her research and knowledge in the field of vaccinations and affects of vaccinations on dogs. Let her know what's going on and ask her. I am certain she'll recommend to not have a 3rd vaccination administered. 2nd January to the date on which you posted is not, IMO, all that far away for the vaccination to be considered a possible trigger to your dog's condition. Just my opinion though. Again, check perhaps with Dr. Jean Dodds and see what she thinks is possible, but if the vaccination is the trigger for the meningitis, loading him with yet another can't be helping him. I know you're already doing what and everything you can to help him. And it's good that you feel you are receiving the help you need from your Vet. But not all Vets are yet open to the "over-vaccination" theory and stick to the usual vaccination protocol that has been routinely recommended now for decades regardless. No offence to your Vet. But please, just check it out. If you would like Jead Dodd's email and can't find it by googling, let me know and I'll send you the addy.

I think they think it sounds more scientifical SG - Could be worse .... I've heard "behaviouralismist" before.

I really don't know much at all about this disease, but I do understand that one of the symptoms is hyper-reactivity to touch. That could be bringing on the aggression, perhaps? I'm not sure how long the meds take to ease the situation and this is something I'd suggest you talk to your Vet about. Try as you can to avoid doing the things that triggers your pup's aggression until questions such as this can be determined, so as for the aggression, if it is caused by the condition, does not become an ingrained learned behaviour. I'm also not sure ..... but have you checked out if there is any relationship between SRMA and Hypothyroidism? I might be completely off the mark, but I thought I recalled reading something on it somewhere along the line. Has your pup recently received vaccination? I understand that SRMA can be triggered by things such as this. I expect your Vet has talked to you about this already anyway.