Erny

I train for this differently. Most people train so that WHEN the dog hears or sees a cue, it will stop at the curb. I train so that in the absence of a cue, the dog stops at the curb. Regardless of the position it adopts. Position IMO is irrelevant.

It is a program devised by Dr. Victoria Voith. If you google "NILIF" and/or Victoria Voith, you'll find lots of links and explanations of the program.

No .... I only meant that I did not wish to influence or be seen to influence the OP as to the training methodology the OP's chosen to follow. Especially as the OP is going to puppy school but also because that's not what was originally asked for. Unless I identify something critically wrong, I tend to refrain from confusing matters by offering different training ideas that might conflict with those being taught by instruction. I wasn't suggesting you shouldn't have brought it up, Squeak . Speaking of puppy school ...... I don't know how old your pup is LukeW, but don't forget that pups have the attention span of a gnat and you should not expect too much too soon. Very short exercises and frequent short sessions, along with a good mix of socialisation to our worldly things is best :D. The KIS principal applies . And that's great, Squeak. It's how you learn. I don't have a 'preferred' method as such .... I'll coach people to train depending on what suits their dog and themselves and depending on what they wish to achieve.

This one depends on your school of thought. "Clicker trainers" teach that EVERY time you click food should follow, otherwise your click is weakened as a conditioned reinforcer. However, I have seen other people train as you have suggested - click means correct, but food doesn't necessarily follow, when the move to an intermittent reward schedule. I would suggest that when they started doing this, that they moved fairly slowly - click, reward, click, no reward, click reward, click reward, etc, so that the dog doesn't really think too much about missing the reward as most of the time they still receive it. I would be very interested to hear Erny's and Cosmolo's thoughts on this. I have refrained from commenting too much on the training methodology here, because that wasn't what the thread was initially started for. In addition, it is about what works best for the dog and owner. I don't train with a clicker (although I've used one now and again for certain problematic behaviours) but I do use the word "yes" to indicate the behaviour was what I was after and "free" as the dog's release word, telling him he is back on his own time/exercise complete. Most 'clicker' trainers (which is really only using the clicker sound in place of a word) I have seen, use the clicker to signify the equivalent of my "yes" and "free" together. In other words, they often don't train for the release as separate. IMO it really doesn't matter whether the dog is trained to understand the 'click' means "this is the behaviour I want, but you're still under the command" and then a release word OR whether you might chose to train for the word "yes" to signify "that is the behaviour I want, but you're still under the command" and then a 'click' to signify a release OR whether you might chose to train for a 'click' to signify "that is the behaviour I want and the exercise is over". IMO though, whatever you chose to signify the "exercise over you are now released for your good job" should be paired with the higher value reward (eg. food/tug .... oops! not allowed to "tug" in Victoria for fear of causing your dog to be declared as a "dangerous dog" !!! :rolleyes:). The signal you chose to use to indicate the dog has done what you want but exercise not finished (in otherwords, an encourager feedback) should be a lower key/less distracting (but pleasing, all the same) signal. As an aside, it doesn't matter WHAT you decide the 'click' sound should represent to the dog. Provided you are consistent. Have I explained/answered your query Squeak? It has been a long but fruitful day. ETA: Re-reading, I see I haven't fully completed an answer ... I don't necessarily train with food treats .... it much depends on the dog. Some dogs have a strong pack drive so I use pack interaction as the dog's reward. But let's assume I did use food. I would say "free" and give my dog a food treat. I would run this on a continuous schedule of reinforcement, initially. When the dog has learnt the exercise, I switch to intermittant, gradually increasing (but simultaneously randomising) the duration between 'food treated' exercises. Depending on how you've chosen to use the clicker, there is no reason you cannot do the same. A dog learns faster on a continuous schedule of reinforcement. But a continuous schedule of reinforcement is more open to extinction. A dog learns slower on an intermittent schedule of reinforcement. But an intermittent schedule of reinforcement is less open to extinction. This is why, when the dog is in the 'teaching' phase, the continuous schedule is recommended. And once the dog has entered the 'training phase' the intermittent schedule is gradually introduced. If the dog did not complete the exercise (eg. did not sit on command) I would not click at all, I would use a NRM and try again. Assuming you're using "reward based training" methodology, you might walk away from your dog and try it later. Not suggesting this is what I do ..... I would only 'click' (or give the dog's release command - which is the dog's 'pay cheque' for a job well done) IF he's performed the exercise.

Dang .... there goes Steve's idea for making a special entrance!!! ;)

Avoid reaching for the treat UNTIL you've clicked. The click, which is simply a replacement sound for a marker word, means "job done well, food is on its way". I use a release command and I begin teaching this to the dogs I train, from the get-go. Not everyone uses a release word. I included the words "release/reward/click" not to mean you necessarily do all of those, but you do what it is that suits the method of training you've adopted. If you are going to train that "x command" means "x command" unless "x command" is changed to "y command" or unless you (ie dog) is released, then yes, what you've written is what the goal of training is. You start by giving the command and preventing him from making an error (ie breaking) before you've given the release word. Initially, it is about building word association - getting the dog used to hearing your release word before there is opportunity for him to move from the command. He comes to note that the release word is always followed by your 'congratulations' for a job well done. I don't use a clicker for general training, but to many, their dogs are taught (inadvertantly or no) that the 'click' represents the dog's cue that the exercise is over and that the dog is free to move around or whatever. Yes. In the 'teaching phase', you work to avoid error. You set your pup up to win. If pup does make an error (our fault), I'd give a NRM (non-reward marker word) and return pup to position. No reward given. Wait for suitable time (according to pup's training level/capability) and release (or click or whatever it is that you have adopted to do).

With your additional explanation of how you have trained, this makes it easier to see ... Yes. Go back to early training (ie release/reward/click once bum hits the ground). This will help to make it clear that it is the "sit" he's being rewarded for. When you are at the point (which you've moved to incrementally) of extending "sit" time, don't 'release/reward/click' if he's barking. Wait for silence, THEN 'release/reward/click'. If this means that the sit/stay (is that what you're doing?) might be longer than what he's been trained for, then reduce one of the loads - in this case, the distance between you and him. In this way you will be able to prevent an error (ie him breaking the sit) and show him the barking doesn't get the (in your case) 'click' .... it's the sitting that achieves this. I would probably leave off doing any of the 'bark on command' trick with him for a while, until the 'sit for a length of time without barking' has been more established. Once it is, you can go back to finishing your training on this by teaching the 'quiet' (ie the 'off' switch). Yes - it is a great way for people to come to understand how dogs learn. Personally, I'd train for a particular signal to mean "don't bark/quiet". Makes for clearer training and can be carried over for practical use in other situations.

With your additional explanation of how you have trained, this makes it easier to see ... Yes. Go back to early training (ie release/reward/click once bum hits the ground). This will help to make it clear that it is the "sit" he's being rewarded for. When you are at the point (which you've moved to incrementally) of extending "sit" time, don't 'release/reward/click' if he's barking. Wait for silence, THEN 'release/reward/click'. If this means that the sit/stay (is that what you're doing?) might be longer than what he's been trained for, then reduce one of the loads - in this case, the distance between you and him. In this way you will be able to prevent an error (ie him breaking the sit) and show him the barking doesn't get the (in your case) 'click' .... it's the sitting that achieves this. I would probably leave off doing any of the 'bark on command' trick with him for a while, until the 'sit for a length of time without barking' has been more established. Once it is, you can go back to finishing your training on this by teaching the 'quiet' (ie the 'off' switch). Yes - it is a great way for people to come to understand how dogs learn. Personally, I'd train for a particular signal to mean "don't bark/quiet". Makes for clearer training and can be carried over for practical use in other situations.

Luke .... Does your dog still bark if you use a verbal command to sit or drop? It's probably obvious to you what's occurred - your dog has sat on the command and barked. You've rewarded for the sit. It's not clear to the dog that it is only the sit you are rewarding, not the 'sit and bark'. So you need to break the 'sit' and 'drop' exercises down into increments, so that you can afford more opportunities to reward your dog JUST for the command action. As an aside, you do need to teach a dog both "on" AND "off" switches and as you've acknowledged, you've only taught the "on" switch.

<sigh>

I expect he figures he should have received a "wubba" wather than a wibbon

LOL .... I see Eddie is getting used to having a ribbon draped over his back .

Having already responded to you by email, you'll know how pleased I am with the work you've done and the 'leaps and bounds' progress you've made in only a matter of months. You've both come a long way and you deserve to be proud of your titled success. Good on you, SM and Eddie Piccies are in order, please Erny PS - This deserves a *BIG* brag, not a *small* brag as per the thread title .

Awesome. Purely awesome.

More money OS, I presume?

I thought "WoofPurNay" was the NWNorth Clinic, just simply a different name and a new building/facility.

I hope this gets the exposure and response you need to make it happen, Kelpie-i. I'd like to see what this lady has *got* and given that she is out from OS, is not likely to offer too many chances beyond this one.

Thanks Sharon - appreciate that and the photo's you took were excellent. I have some more, but they are the ones that didn't turn out well. Here's a link to the thread with the PHOTO's for people to visit.

Hi Bosko. It was our pleasure that you thought so .

And this one ... "Did someone say 'Pigs Ear' ????? " And Todd (I think it's Todd .... heaven help me if I have his name wrong ) in the back ground thinking everybody are just greedy and socially inept. .................. but secretly wishing for a pig's ear too.

And this one ... "Yummmmmm .......... pigs ear ..... yumm" Those canines are seriously big !!!

Like this one .... "I smell a Pig's Ear ..... " This is a nice photo. I lightened it in photobucket but it didn't come out the same way when I uploaded to here. ETA : Actually - it looks better on this computer than it does on my other. double

There is one thing you could also try - it might make a bit of a difference, at least to the 'momentum' of the pacing. Attach some pieces of marine ply so that they stand out a good metre or two, at a 90 degree angle from the fence. This sometimes helps as the dog cannot track along the fence itself without having to negotiate the obstacles in its path. But if anxiety remains a cause, the dog will probably find a new 'path' to track. But combined with behaviour modification program, it might help to weaken the 'learnt' aspect of the "fence pacing" behaviour.

Serves yourself right for being cheeky about my faux pas.

It is too difficult to assess without seeing the dog. The stress levels I am imagining from what I read could be either under or over estimated. Given the dog is in a new environment though, I would probably have organised to stay with the dog for the first week (easier said than done, I know), to give it time to have the freedom of exploring his new environment and knowing that I'm still there when he comes looking for me. Set up an exercise (mental & physical)/rest/eat/sleep pattern. In the meanwhile, the dog is familiarising itself with the home environment and getting used to trusting that it is not being abandoned when I leave or put it out for short whiles. Desensitising it to denied access (incrementally) and to being left alone would begin towards the end of the first week. The amount of affectionate attention would be zero to minimal in the first few days, then minimal. I am not keen on advising that the dog be crated or otherwise prevented from pacing in times when it is stressed. If stress is the cause, the dog's behaviour has become its coping mechanism. To stop the behaviour without providing it another alternative (and more appetitive) behaviour may only serve to increase its anxiety because the initial anxiety cannot be relieved. This can in turn lead the dog to physically harming itself in the process of trying to find a way to relieve the stress. I prefer distraction rather than prevention in these cases. Lots of exercise - emphasis on 'mental' exercise would be recommended - not only particularly considering its weight issue, but also to 'balance' the dog's mind. This would include training. Leadership is an absolute must for the dog. I wouldn't be lavishing the dog with treats/rewards, not unless the dog 'worked' for them first. IE The "NILIF" program (Nothing In Life Is Free) - where the dog must DO something to receive something good. I don't know what you can work in for this dog nor whether its behaviour is as excessive as what I am imagining. Perhaps, if it is not as bad as I am perceiving, it will begin to settle down once it becomes familiar and learns to trust and rely in your leadership and begin to understand your 'life patterns'. Regardless, a well planned (eg. morning and night, if not also in the middle of the day) training regime (drive training IMO would be excellent) can only help. If it is particularly excessive, sometimes we need to consult with a physician for medical assistance to combine with behaviour modification exercises. A DAP collar might be of assistance, but IME is unlikely to work on its own to solve the problem - but it might help to take the 'edge' off. But perhaps this could be a first port of call prior to medication. The medication is only to help with the behaviour modification program and to try to lower the dog's stress levels for both its physical and mental welfare while the behaviour modification exercises have time to make a difference. Don't know if any of this helps. It is hard when you can't see the dog to determine stress levels.