Erny

Cold? Melbourne? LOL Yep ... bring your thermals. You'll be fine.

It gets easier - especially more noticeably earlier after the first few times. So don't give up on the (eg) second or third times if you don't detect much change. Dogs learn by recognising patterns. Once isn't usually enough for a pattern to be discerned, so its possible he'll be thinking it's a 'one-off'. At some point there may be an 'extinction burst'. That's where your dog's prior belief in his 'system' being generally successful. So if the barking becomes seemably 'worse' at one point or other in these early stages, don't think it isn't working. When the cause is "attention seeking", the 'extinction burst' is often a sign that what you're doing IS working. And you need to work through that or you run a high risk of making your initial problem worse. But you should see progress along the way .... it might not always be 'steady' improvement from your pov though. Great that you've taken the first tenative move in 'step 1' .

Bertie b .... I'm in Melbourne but not sure of your actual location. Feel free to PM me if you would like to discuss further, or click on the link to my web-site in my signature for my contact number/s. If location is problematic (although I service many areas) I may be able to give you a name or two of someone else to see.

Oooh sorry Jey. I meant to respond to your previous post. The seminar is at the Virginia Palms International, in Boondall. What's happening in Melbourne the following week? And I'm presuming you mean you'd like to join the 'meet' ?? I need each of you to PM me with YOUR available days and your localities. So ROM and I can try to sort something out that at least hopefully will suit all.

It was the same dog that your dog turned on .... right? (Note here .... are you kidding us that your Mum's dogs are 20 years old????) There is what I will refer to here as an "ancient instinct" that sometimes is exhibited by some dogs. It is triggered, it seems, by a frailty/illness harboured by the dog who is attacked. It is 'natures way' of, I guess, weeding out the old, weak and/or frail so they do not hinder the pack and thus affect its survival. If your dog is attacking the same dog each time and if your dog has up until now otherwise been good around other dogs, it might pay to have the Vet do a thorough work-up on the dog which has been attacked, to detect if anything is wrong and that might otherwise be treatable. On the otherhand, if the dog is 20 years old (???) the procedure of checking and any treatment for ailment might be too much and 'counter qualitive' for the old dog. In any event, it would be a matter of keeping the dogs separate. It is not necessarily a case of your dog needing to be pts. And an attack on another dog is not indicative of an attack on a child or person. But it would pay to have a trainer/behaviourist assess your dog in more detail. ETA: I had a similar incident occur in relation to one of my call-outs for "aggression". It involved a pack of 3 dogs. All had lived happily together for some years. Then the 'middle' dog (speaking age, not necessarily hierarchy status) began to attack the elderly/weak dog. I watched the approach of the younger 'problematic' dog towards the older dog. It was a different approach to what you would expect of a typical hierarchy challenge or assertion. In this case, the 'attack' was always preceded by an obvious and determined 'sniff'. I don't mean the 'meet and greet' sniff. It was different. Anyway, they took their older dog to the Vet. They paid for some basic tests as they really couldn't afford more. And as discussed above, further expense would only probably prove to be an academic exercise, given the older dog's age and frailty. The basic tests didn't show up anything, but I found out further down the track that this older dog had shown some periodic symptoms of declining health. The Vet also agreed that he felt there was definately something wrong with the older dog. Although I set up a system of 'preventative' measures for these people to follow, unfortunately the story ends sadly and the older dog received one final and fatal injury from the younger dog. The younger dog has never shown any aggression towards the other dog he shares his life with, nor to other unfamiliar dogs he meets along the way when out. The above is the only conclusion I could reach in this instance.

Ok, great . Now to begin with, I guess we need to sort semantics. Such as what days suit who. And what localities. Perhaps a group PM would be better for this info? And I'm a bit reliant on ROM too, as she knows QLD geographics better than I do (her being a native, an' all ).

I'm coming up to QLD for the forthcoming Dr. Jean Dodds seminar/MDBA Awards Presentation night (26th June). Meeting up with ROM . Although we expect we'll have the opportunity to meet with a number of DOLers on the seminar/presentation night, thought it might be a good opportunity to meet with other DOLers (and/or again the ones who attend the evening) and get to know some of you! I'll be up there for a couple of days beyond the special night, so if you'd like to join both ROM and I .... be it lunch, dinner or perhaps a group visit to the Aussie Zoo/Waterworld or whatever, feel free to PM me. Would love the chance to make your acquaintence face to face !! Cheers! Erny

From your description in your preceding post it doesn't sound like separation related behaviour. In regards to the part of your post I've quoted above, it is also possible that his previous owners simply (inadvertently?) reinforced his barking behaviour. If they hadn't, it is less likely that he would display this behavour. I dog sat a cavvy last Christmas. His behaviour was very similar .... very demanding. Over the course of a few weeks (and remember, I'm only there for a comparative short time) he learnt that barking does not get him what he wants. Being calm and quiet does. Daily exercise helped him a lot too. At the beginning, this little guy acted as though his brain was in so many places all at once he didn't know what to do first. Barging through doorways was a big thing of his too, as was jumping up on and all over people. He almost made me giddy with his manic performances. But not too long into the routine of walking; feeding; grooming ... each day, every day .... he really settled down. Still a ball of thrill and happiness, but really evidently more 'steady' in his mind. In that time he had also learnt to show self-control and would wait in a sit position (wriggling to get out of his skin, I admit) until I gave him the word to come through. Jumping up had all but disappeared ... though there were those initial moments he'd forget himself with the glee of my arrival, but he would quickly check himself into a sit position (inwardly turning somersaults, I could see LOL). His owners asked me, on their return, whether I'd trained him. They were so thrilled with his behaviour (and had never thought his previous behaviour was a problem, until they saw how much better he could be) they determined that he was going to receive the calm assertive leadership from them, along with daily walks for mental stimulation. Sorry M&J .... this takes away from your story, but your cavvy so reminds me of this little guy that I took care of at daily visits for a few weeks. Try it out. Let him bark. Ignore him (including no eye contact). Shut the blinds on him if you need to (ie if he persists with the barking). When he goes quiet, wait for a moment, and if he's still quiet, let him in. Progress along these lines until you can increase time. Best time to let him in is when he's not looking/begging to get in.

I'm glad you raised this and have thought on this possibility. It is one that I was thinking whilst reading the posts in your thread. And of course if you don't identify 'cause' you run a risk of reinforcing the dog's goals, which can in itself make the already problematic behaviour worse. What is often a tell-tale sign is your dog's behaviour when you are away. Naturally, this can be difficult to assess .... given that you're not there to do so. But engaging the assistance of your neighbours (who may be able to see from their windows, or at least hear - if SA behaviour results in barking) or you might be able to sneak back (easier said than done .... great noses and great ears!). A trainer/behaviourist helps to identify cause and structure a program. Support and advice should also be there 'for along the way', as programs generally need 'tweaking' as the behaviour changes. ETA: "Separation Anxiety" is anxiety based on the dog's belief that without a certain person/animal being present, normal adaptive function is not possible. "Lack of independance training" carries similarities, although it is not dependant on a certain person/animal ..... it is dependant upon any person/animal being present. "Denied Access" is another thing altogether - where the dog believes that if you are there he must have access to you. "Attention Seeking" .... well, is just that, attention seeking, and is a way that a dog has learnt to achieve what he wants when he wants it. Not the dog's fault. Ours. :D (As is usually the case! LOL) ETA: Have you tried 'waiting it out'? In otherwords, how long have you left it for with your dog barking? Does he cease after what period of time? Hint : sometimes it's best to alert the neighbours that you are working on this problem but that part of 'working on the problem' will appear to them that you are dismissing the barking as a problem at all.

Muzzling isn't the be all and end all of it though (although stopping teeth gnashing at each other is a big start, I agree). If there was a fight that had broken out there can be trauma and that could make some fears worse. Injury by claws is also possible. I think the people would have to have ensured their own hierarchy status first, before they even attempted that exercise. I suspect too, that each dog there would have undergone some assessment for suitability for the exercise as well. Great if it worked though. And makes it very interesting how the dogs' behaviours altered over the session. As 4 Paws mentions, some historical information would be really good .... not to mention what has transpired since.

I think it is safer this way, yes. Emma Parsons is the Author. It is a "Karen Pryor Clicker Book".

Some can be two (eg. recall .... two arms stretched out) Depends on what you are doing. One hand can become a directional signal (as they do in retrieve training/trialling) They should be different. What if you trained your dog for speedy responses (which is what I aim for). One karate chop for drop. Two for sit. But he beats you to the second chop and drops instead of sits. Too confusing for the dog and open to misinterpretation IMO. Yes .... although completely different signals are easier to learn and teach if it is completely different behaviours you are after (IMO) Don't understand your question. What hand signals has your private instructor already given you?

Yes - I think it is worthwhile. Naturally, the 'clicker' is not a methodology unto itself though. Its timing and delivery will probably be more concise which means you may find you have a better chance of marking the better behaviour (eg. Dog drawing breath in between growls) ..... but there is IMO so much more that needs to be taken into account. If you are going to use this, make sure you have 'charged' your clicker to something of very high value for your dog. And you need to be mindful that your reward that the clicker signals is not something that serves as a reinforcer to the fear aggro behaviour.

That was an anti-bark collar, Poocow? Don't know what brand/type you used, but I have never heard this being experienced with the one that I use/hire. I am aware that if a setting is too high (which is wrong, and in your case accidental) can cause a dog to yelp/vocalise. Is it to this that you mean your dog was receiving the stim "constantly"?

Just a further thought to my post above (and I'm sorry, KJA, because it momentarily takes your thread to one side) .... If I wanted to be a 'responsible' breeder and, going by the thoughts of many registered breeders here this would necessitate me being an ANKC member, this means I am also obliged to agree/observe the training methods prescribed by the ANKC? This is perhaps a post that should be the beginning of another thread .... I have to dash out right now but will perhaps begin one when I get back later. PS .. I'm not a breeder, nor do I intend to be, BTW.

Yeah .... but that's not Victorian Law. It's merely ANKC/DogsVic policy. It's what they have chosen as their policy. They allow check chains and head-collars, although I have seen damage (especially from the use of the latter) inadvertently being caused by those. If you go to ANKC affiliated clubs, you are bound to respect their policy (regardless of what policies these might be), just as you would with any other Club's 'policy'. But it is not State "law". ETA: I was not aware, until very recently, that the ANKC/DogsVic don't permit use of e-collars. I was quite surprised, actually, given that their use is permitted in a "restricted" fashion, by law. So I guess it is a 'personal' choice they have adopted. Their prerogative. As an aside - I thought DogsVic, particularly given the Government's accepted influence of it, would have needed to be an organisation that doesn't preclude other trainers; owners; etc. from membership based on 'personal preference' though. Doesn't seem to be the case in this instance?

KJA .... How many stim levels does the collar that you purchased, have? I've not used the 'vibration' component of an e-collar before ..... K9 Force does report that he's found dogs are more likely to be frightened by a 'vibration' than they are of a stim that is given at the dog's working level. I agree that you should only employ an e-collar under the instruction/supervision of a trainer/behaviourist. In fact in Victoria, that is one of the restrictions you are obliged to observe. Mind you, I think other training tools such as head-collars, check chains, prong-collars (the use of which are, incidentally, banned in Victoria) should all be only used under the instruction/supervision of a trainer. Pity that you can pick some of these up in places where even those who sell them have no idea of how they should be properly used.

Faster delivery. For some reason, some people find it easier to deliver the 'click' marker more accurately timed. People also say that because it is the exact same tone each and every time, the dog learns it quicker and I expect that is definitely the case. However, I tend to find the dog learns a verbal marker with sufficient efficiency so long as it is said with approximate similarity. But perhaps not everyone can do that easily or naturally???? The trouble with "same tone" is that it becomes distracting/confusing if there are other people in close proximity using the "clicker" to mark their dogs' behaviours. I find them cumbersome and in the way. I use both hands for training. Each hand working independantly of the other. I'm sure if I persisted and used the clicker on a frequent and regular basis, I'd get used to it. But I've not found it to have made a startling (if any) difference to my verbal marker ("yes") nor to training, so unless I have particular cause to want or need to use the clicker, I tend not to. Using a clicker for Training in Drive, I especially find particularly awkward, because I'm too busy .... especially in the early stages of training. But it does have advantages for those people who aren't inclined to use their voice/tone to praise the dog in timely fashion. Perhaps because it becomes an important and vital component of training for them ("look at me ............ I'm CLICKER TRAINING!!!!!") and because they are holding the clicker, keeps this uppermost in their mind. ????

Charliehotel .... thanks for the words. I am thrilled to hear that Minna is still going so well for you, and that you are taking the preparatory steps in training before baby arrives . I know these things will stand you in good stead for when your new baby arrives, and of course, for afterwards as well. Again - appreciate the words and wonderful to hear the early progress we saw, is continuing for you . Don't forget that it is your work that is paying the dividends, so credit to you . Sorry to hijack your thread Rar :nahnah:. I just haven't heard regarding Minna's progress in a while, and was coincidentally only thinking of her and Charliehotel a few days or so ago. ETA: Will be thinking of you, CH, in a couple of months. Can we expect to hear from you on DOL once your baby has joined our world?

Yeah. I have some writings that I researched way back when, for a project I was doing at the time. "Progesterone, which becomes dominant following ovulation, has a calming effect on the dog's mind. Estrogen is short lived in the dog's body, whilst progesterone remains in circulation, influencing the brain for two months after each estrus. So a female dog spayed during this two-month period may experience a considerable decrease in progesterone levels which, in turn, may be accompanied by emotional disturbances such as depression, irritability, nervousness and aggression. As the nervous, aggressive behaviours may become learned behaviour, it is recommended that spaying, if it is to be done, be done prior to her first season, provided she is anatomically mature."

I think this has something to do with where the dog is in her estrous cycle when she is desexed?

Use grass (clippings, or turf off-cuts). Have a piece outside (or cover a certain area size, if grass clippings). Over a period of time, gradually make that piece of grass (or the area the clippings cover) smaller and smaller. Eventually it is possible that the dog will include concrete as a substrate preference.

IMO it appears you are only 'partly' training your dog. You're training for being outside. But not taking the preventative measures and training the pup that it actually needs to go outside. And every time your pup has an opportunity - and takes it - to go inside, he's learning that he can (and thinks it is ok). Vigilance is required. You need to be pro-active. Make a chart to cover one week and make a note of when your pup sleeps, plays, eats, drinks, and wakes. Include in this chart when your pup toilets. When you look back over a week, it will give you an idea of how long after what your pup tends to toilet. Some people find this very helpful in recognising a pattern that is often there, but they couldn't see if before. Generally, toilet time is after waking; after sleeping; after eating/drinking; after playing ..... and just when the pup hasn't gone for a while. You need to have some notion of these times so that you can take your pup to the toilet area. This will teach your dog "when you feel you need to go ..... go outside to this spot". Please don't go the "rub nose in it" route. Aggression in the later lives of some dogs can be linked back to inappropriate house training.

I build word association first. The cue and then crossing the road. Then I reverse the order of 'punishment' as would normally be given by those who work the other way around. The dog goes to cross the road in the absence of the cue = punishment. Or if the dog stops before the road in the absence of the cue = reward. I am mindful that my own body language needs to be removed as a cue. IOW .... I work up so that I keep walking onto the road, but looking for the dog to stop regardless.

The point being that taking time off allows you to more gradually (albeit efficiently) introduce the concept of independance, rather than suddenly.