Erny

'Bad' can mean a variety of things. 'Bad' as in bad for the dog in terms of stress levels. (eg. poor house-training .... punishment for soiling) 'Bad' as in having taught it to ignore commands (through eg. inconsistent training) 'Bad' as in having taught the dog to do the wrong things (eg. jumping up) 'Bad' as in unfair. And for that matter, 'training' as in obedience commands? Or 'training' in relation to behaviour? Or both? If it is purely obedience, I'd prefer a dog not to have received training than to have received 'bad' training where it has been taught it doesn't need to comply. It is easier to train well from scratch than it is to have to undo a dog's learnt belief system that commands mean nothing. But, the dog I work with might have been taught (eg) 'sit' badly (perhaps poorly administered methodology) but in spite of that has picked it up ok. And because of that albeit 'bad' training, I might be able to use that known 'sit' command to assist in behaviour modification. So that's why I think definition of 'bad' and of 'training' is required.

I think the answer depends on the definition of 'bad'.

How could you possibly know that without running unnecessary risks that you could be wrong? Much depends on the other dogs - their own experiences (or lack of) as to whether they will appropriately deal/interact with a puppy. I agree - provided the other dogs you chose to do the teaching have been well taught themselves. Not necessarily the case - much depends on what occurs during those meetings. Agree with this - isolation is not the answer.

Certain training schools offer this advantage because they create a "controlled" environment, not an environment where luck and chance predominantly come into play as they do at some off-lead parks. If early socialisation (8-16 weeks) was done well and thoroughly, the mature dog doesn't have to meet all and sundry all the time to remain socialised. Meeting with the occasional dog here and there is generally sufficient. Once again, this is best done in a controlled situation - not one where you might only own half of the control with your dog on the leash. Working with your dog in a controlled environment - surrounded by other dogs equally under control - even if your dog doesn't necessarily meet 'nose-to-nose' (so to speak) is also good. It doesn't always have to be that dogs interact fully with others. I see you're thinking of getting a puppy at some stage. Remember 'early socialisation' is important. As has been mentioned here, socialisation isn't all or only about meeting other people and other dogs, it's about anything and everything worldly (noises; surfaces; traffic; trains; etc. etc.). Remember that the socialisation experiences MUST be positive ones and need to be broad - IOW, not just to your other dog - for it to have the desired 'broad' impact. You will only ensure positive experiences if you know that the other part of the equation is as equally under control. This is why training schools, provided the instructors are qualified with the pre-requisite knowledge of pups, dogs, and canine behaviour, is perhaps the better way to go. That way, the dogs are controlled and the handlers of the dogs are under the instruction and supervision of the trainer. Dogdude has given some good advice to you. And if you focus on training, you'll be able to utilise that to help you with showing your dog how to interact appropriately (Eg. Recall your dog when he's getting OTT in play, etc.)

Exactly my thoughts, Kelpie-i. Moggy - have a think about how many other things occur on her terms and not yours. And how that has come about.

I'm not arguing with what you say (just in case you think I might be). By "State Body", you mean something like (if in Victoria), "DogsVic" affiliated? The reason I ask is because to my knowledge each Club affiliated with DogsVic don't necessarily comprise of qualified instructors and I've had good feedback of some, and not of another, in terms of understanding dogs and dog behaviour. I agree with giving as much info as possible, but want the OP to know to be discerning, regardless of affiliation. I just thought that you might know something I don't and that perhaps somewhere along the line I got it wrong. :p

I know they are not kissing as such, but what does it mean? Ummmm .... he wants your lunch?

ROM sent me a message to tell me her computer finally and fatally died . But I guess this means she'll be spending even MORE time practicing with her dog ........ so watch out, obedience trial competitors!!! Also means we'll have to wait for piccies .

"The dog does this to please me" (with the assumption of absence of anything in it for the dog) "Wagging its tail means it is happy/friendly"

Hi Jenny. Yes it is. The event has only just gone "public" (save for here on DOL) and enquiries to purchase tickets have just started coming in. But there's still a bit of room left for the weekend. More room available for the Friday evening seminar (because the facilities and nature of the event on that night allows for more numbers). Email me at [email protected] confirming the ticket you wish to purchase (in your case, Sunday 18th) and I'll send you payment details. Once payment is received your ticket will be secured. Erny

We humans do a lot of things interactionally speaking on a (often unintentional) sub-conscious level which makes it difficult if not impossible for us to work out why our dogs behave as they do, unless someone with objectivity and understanding can point it out to us. :D ............. and so that we can spit in their mouths. Enjoy every day with them, Pumpitdog.

Well done, Kelpiesrule! It is always such an achievement when we reach new heights ............. and such a buzz . Good for you and continue to enjoy .

Hi Seita ... Yes - there's still some availability left for the weekend at the moment. It's only just been publicised, so not sure how long those spots will last. I am not aware of where all people are coming from so not sure if that includes anyone from QLD. Any DOLers aware? Perhaps Steve would know? Hopefully he'll pop in here. If not, I'll email him for you Seita. Would be great to see you here though and hope you can make it.

Hi IDWT ..... I too am open minded on things, although I like to express my own doubts so that they can be explored. The things you describe in your above post - especially the kissing example - relate to physical 'sensations' and I could expect some sort of 'relationship' to develop as a result of the pleasantness (associated reward) that comes with that. I don't argue that some domesticated animals still regurgitate (in fact I think I indicated that this was the case) - but it was the point that many don't, yet there is no issue of "bonding" in the absence of regurgitation. For those that do, delivery of the reward of food (especially when it is coupled with hunger satiation) would lend itself to a perhaps faster and perhaps stronger relationship (in terms of 'pack') and I think this has a bearing regardless of whether it comes from the mouth or the hand when attributed to humans being the provider of food. That many of us enjoy immensely strong bonds with our animals without having spat, regurgitated or otherwise delivered food from our mouths to those of our dogs is indicative (IMO) that "spitting" to the animal's mouth is not only non-essential but perhaps not even a strong or existent component of the dog's bonding process. In the OP's case, I am suspicious of the fact that each person 'spat' into the dog they had claimed as "their own". I suspect that this mere (even if sub-conscious) perception of ownership may have had an influence over the respective pups' relationship to each of the OP and the OP's OH. Unless this could be conducted in a completely sterile environment under scientific conditions without emotion, there is no way that it can be accurately hypothesised that the pups responded to the recognition of the 'spit' delivered by their allocated owner. But if we were to further discuss the hypothesis as presented and queried by the OP in the original post, it would mean that pups who were delivered food by way of regurgitation from their mother (or other surrogate) would not be loyal to their owner/s and I strongly believe this cannot be proven to be the case.

APDT (Association of Pet Dog Trainers - Australia) are doing the 'push'.

Whoo Hooo ...... not only for what you and Seika have achieved, but for also managing to get on-line amongst your computer woes Now - once you've managed to fix up your computer, we will of course demand a piccy of your dog sporting at least one of the ribbons/trophies won on the day . Go Rom .............. no stopping you now !!!!

Use of PPCollars (ie 'pinch' or 'prong' collars) is NOT prohibited in NSW. Use of electronic collars (and I believe other electronic devises) ARE prohibited in NSW. Use of PPCollars ARE prohibited in Victoria. Use of electronic collars are permitted in Victoria provided certain conditions are met (ie Vet permission and supervision/instruction of qualified trainer). However, news has it that there is currently a push to outlaw the use of both of these tools in all States of Australia. If people don't stand up now and write letters etc., then it is likely that use of these tools will be regulated against in total, in all areas and regardless of the dog, the situation, or whether it is the better tool for the job in terms of the dog's overall welfare.

Hi Mercedes. Just curious - is this a 'generalistation' or do you actually know for a fact that the local obedience club affiliated with the OP's state controlling body has a "great beginners classes, qualified instructors" and that the OP's puppy "will experience great socialising as it should be done"? You won't get flamed. Franchise businesses are like that. Similar to the answers given to the OP to her question, it isn't about the "name" of the place, but about the qualifications, reputation and capabilities of the person who runs it.

However ...... Not all or many domesticated dogs will regurgitate - yet generally there appears no issue with "bonding". Also, my readings have it that a pack of wolves in the wild will regurgitate for their pups and that this role does not necessarily solely belong to the pups' mother. Therefore, I doubt that 'saliva exchange' would bear a big/any influence on specific bonding.

Foxiezep .... as said here, it is not about going to PPS - IMO that is highly recommended not only for the pup but also for the owner, who often has much learning to do as well, to best understand about pups; pup behaviour; and how to avoid problems. It is about WHICH PPS you go to and finding one who knows well how to best deal with pups of all different temperaments. I don't know which trainer is at Petstock - as I understand it, for the most part Petstock have partiality to a particular training group (not necessarily a particular trainER). I am not familiar with this group's approach or insistance on their trainers' knowledgeability, so am unable to comment one way or the other. Four Paws K9 Training have a school at Diggers Rest and also at Taylors Lakes which I don't think is all that far from you? I know they will serve you and your puppy well there.

And you in his Jaybeece .... you in his . The World. Shout it from the mountain tops! People who don't have a dog with these sorts of issues often can't completely realise and empathise how great a mile-stone that has been achieved with each improvement along the way in rehabilitation. Some people who do have a dog with these sorts of issues will gain hope from the successes, be they small or large, these stories provide. It is a story of hope. Well done - I know how hard the work can be at times and how long it can take to get to each albeit small breakthrough. Yet the reward of getting there is immense beyond description. I still experience goose-bumps at the memories I have of working with dogs and experiencing the sight of their improvement and the joy of such a deep understanding we gain of each other in having worked and achieved. Good for you . Celebrate!

I think she's got friends over. So we might be kept waiting in suspenders ................

ROM has a brag ............. come on, ROM. Spill.

And us behaviourists wouldn't be as required as they are now. Although I'm sure we could busy ourselves with researching as to whether the manner or angle with how you spit has an impact on how strong the bond and 'respect' you get from your dog. Or whether there was a difference if you'd eaten certain foods just before you spat. And then we could be busy going around doing demonstrations and teaching people how to spit properly. The mind boggles.