Erny

Hi Stacey. Thanks for your post. Back before the days of the Victorian prong-collar ban, these collars were not generally available for sale 'over the counter' at pet shops or such like ..... not like (eg) check chains and head-collars, both of which potentially (and according to reports do) cause more physical harm to dogs, and which can be purchased by anyone from anywhere at anytime for any reason and without even being cautioned to seek professional training advice on proper use etc. The only places I knew of (back then) to acquire a prong-collar was via training establishments of some description. I'm not sure whether they could be easily purchased from overseas back then either .... my belief is that one needs to have a permit to be able to import them and I am presuming this restriction was the same then as it is now. So, if the Vic Government would see their way clear to recognising the values of the prong-collar and that its re-instatement under "restricted use" would constitute an even higher safe-guard than of even other more potentially injurious (but common) training/management devices, I think a very satisfactory and valuable training tool option would be made available where it is now not.

Thanks for trying FaxonandBear and for adding to the list of *attempts to find*. If I can't find out who they are, I figure all I can do is make a point of mentioning in the submission that their credibility can't be established at this time. Go figure .................. why would someone such as Bob Cameron source out what presently seems to be a 'needle in a hay stack', when NDTF stood ready willing and able to be consulted at that time. Anyway - not to spend too much time on that ponderance .

Thanks Rom. I PM'd you asking if you happen to have a copy of that article (I had previously seen the thread, but didn't realise he is president of APDT) and if you have, whether you could provide it to me. Why I just didn't post that here, I don't know .

Thanks for trying Jeff. Not to mention that the above link shows them as being in Queensland ??? The spelling of "Whylie's Working Dogs" is correct as given. They are referenced in "Certificate of Consultation" made by Bob Cameron, Min for Ag and gives a list of "organisations which represent industry members upon whom any appreciable burden will be imposed" and who have therefore been consulted. Only AAPDT and WWD are listed as the dog training organisations that were consulted. :D Funny how he didn't seek to consult with an organisation such as NDTF Now ..... who the heck are "Whylie's Working Dogs" ???? If they were *big enough* to be considered as a viable organisation fit for consultation in a matter where legislation is to be passed, surely they would be *big enough* to be able to be found without too much sherlock holmes style effort???

Hi Anissa Any luck with the above?

Shameless *bump* .... just to keep this thread up alongside (or at least close) to the other one.

I've received docs via FOI and am furthering my work on this submission. One of the Dog training organisations that had input to the legislation before it was passed, was "Whylie's Working Dogs". The other was the Australian Association of Professional Dog Trainers. My question is, does anyone know who "Whylie's Working Dogs" are? I've never heard of them nor could I find anything on them via google.

This does require a process of desensitisation and a building of positive association - coupled with a prevention of fear behaviour becoming worse. You need to work at .... or just behind the pup's reaction threshold and you need to avoid inadvertently reinforcing fear behaviour, but you also need to reinforce the improved confident behaviour. Please don't overface the pup - if you work too close in you are initiating the "flooding" technique and unless you really know how to do this properly and in its entirety (and it can be difficult for even knowledgeable and practiced trainers to be able to assess this too, as it is not like the dog changes colour to let us know what level of stress it is at) you can make the problem far worse and even less likely to be able to be remedied. Holly will also need frequent and regular exposure to other dogs in a properly planned desensitisation program. Are you hooked up with a dog school with instructors who know and understand fear behaviours and how to remedy them?

Thanks guys. Didn't see this thread until now. Have PM'd the OP with some detailed info - basically involves recalls away when dog's body language signals an escalation in excitement. The OP has been advised to keep her dog on-lead and to practice the exercise in a controlled environment.

Kelpie-i ...... when you can't reach by 'smoke', you need to resort to good ol' fashioned 'drums'.

Isn't that a bicycle I saw, attached to the generator ..... for the purposes of these city luxuries????? HG - is your bathtub out near the windmill, like it is in "McLeod's Daughters"? Oh ..... :p ...................... do you have TV even to be able to answer this question??? Never mind, you just keep on churning that milk for butter, and spinning the wool from your sheep's backs for your clothing. :p PS ..... Actually, I'd love some fresh milk and home spun wool. So much nicer than we city folk have . I'm a tad envious of country living folk sometimes (but not always ).

Good post, Fido666. I don't think it is in the best interests of training in general if different views on training cannot be written about. It is up to the reader to digest, discuss and/or decide whether the methodology written of is suitable to them .... and/or to take snippets from it to apply within their own methodologies, if appropriate to the individual dog and situation. Without all views being able to be published and read, we will favour only that which we are allowed to know of ...... and that would be a belief system based in ignorance, rather than broad-minded knowledge. And this is not because I favour the non-use of motivational positive methods - to the contrary, I use them frequently and whenever possible, combined with other applications as necessary, to suit the dog and the purpose. I like to hear and read of the various methods tried and practiced by others. It prompts further thought and consideration - even if it only brings to bear and confirm my faith in other methods/combo of methods.

I'm only guessing here, but I can't help thinking that this little piece of advice might have been borne by a person relating the situation of "tug" to a dog with existing problems (or more particularly to an owner with existing problems :wink:) ................... and from there the doctrine has escalated. I think with the more commonly held view of the owner instigating and ending the game and being in control of valuable resources, it really doesn't matter so much.

What?!!! You finally pulled out the ol' starter crank from the back shed and pumped your PC into action, HG?

How many JRT's has your trainer tried to train? Of the numbers I have worked with I have found them to be highly intelligent and quick to learn. You need to keep their minds busy and keep training interesting and fun, but like many and varied working dog variety, they are fast to learn where their advantage lies and will do what they will to this end. I think their 'smarts' can easily out-do those who are not faster than they are in recognising a loop hole , but there is no way I would consider, let alone verbalise, that JRT's are untrainable!!!

I'm in Melbourne, if you'd like to PM me we can arrange a consult, but time is what will be needed if you want to help change the dog's behaviour.

Where are you located? You need to consult with a reputable trainer/behaviourist qualified to assess and assist in aggression behaviour modification. And you need to do it like yesterday. By the sounds it has already waited too long to be addressed (not always to suggest too late) .... and I'm surprised (or am I really) that your Vet has considered an injection to calm the dog would be all that would be required. Or could this simply be my assumption .... perhaps there is more to it than the info here allows at this time? It would also assist if you could tell us if your obedience school instructors were able or willing to give you any behaviour modification techniques to follow to progressively improve this dog's behaviour, or any investigation and explanation as to why it is occurring.

Oh ..... sorry PAX.

Arya .... you've expressed my sentiments also, although you set them out far more clearly than my vague notion of doing so above. Use the tool that works for the dog, rather than trying to make it work. Otherwise, it's a bit like trying for a square peg in a round hole and can cause ramifications in training in the meantime.

Although I personally don't commonly train with a clicker, it doesn't have to be a good addition to only the tool box of "positive trainers" ..... can also apply to "balanced trainers" as well and be used where its purpose suits the dog and the training exercise the best. ;) Emmala ..... as always, we implement what suits the dog the best. You don't have to use the clicker - as said by Pax, the clicker is only a reward marker and if a verbal (eg) "Yes" has optimal effect, then that might be your tool of choice for your dog.

Did you contact Four Paws K9 Training? Google (sorry .... on my way out so no time to put link up here for you) for the web-site, or PM Kelpie-i here on DOL for info. The hearding workshops and lessons are conducted at Diggers Rest. There is another down Gippsland way (Welshpool) .... Paul. Kelpie-i would be able to give you info for that too if that is closer to you.

Yes, thank you Jeff. I meant to ask that question too.

Mutchumbo .... I can't help thinking that something was missing during this dog's initial training and/or that the foundation training went too far too fast. But it's really difficult to assess this without more detailed information, such as when training began, what steps were taken, what type of reward is given (and what value of reward), what proofing exercises were conducted (and how) and when the "perving" behaviour began.

Thank you, Tangwyn .... your explanation makes more sense of it and renders the expression "perving" more appropriate. I wasn't imagining the situation as occurring during a scent detection exercise.