Erny

No - not too late Scope and I look forward to receiving the submission. Please be sure to email it to my address as in the first post (ie not via DOL). I have recently heard back from the DPI (FOI) - estimated cost for search = $100.00. I've given them the go ahead so I expect I'll be receiving something from them soonish.

Have only glanced through .... interesting to note that under "Conflict Aggression" the notes seem to suggest "no check chain or prong - no punishment" but that they advocate use of Head Collar for control. So the strong pressure on nerve rich areas around the dog's muzzle (close to eyes) and back of head and leverage of head on neck is not recognised as a punishment?

I think Kavik's statement answers your question, Pinnacle. It is often that people are not thinking ahead in time and worry about the problem only once it reaches the stage of frustration. This is normal in that how can you recognise a potential problem when you don't know what you're looking for? So education is the key IMO. Of course it's not all about that - some issues develop due to uncontrollable outside influence. Others because of genetic factors preculiar to the breed or even to the individual within the breed. Etc. Etc. But if dog owners in general could and would access information towards education (including coaching - reading and interpreting what one reads can quite often not be enough) in the very early days (or before) dog ownership, then its possible that numerous dogs would not exhibit the common problems for which they seek the different training tools in the first place. I'm generalising of course. Even with education, training tools for various purposes and specialities would still be beneficial and required, but perhaps not quite as prevalantly as they are now. ETA : And is it possible that some of the "specialty" (my word - perhaps not the correct one) training tools are now being sought more now than before because there are more trainers with knowledge and understanding of dogs & training tools than there have been in the past? And something further to consider - ARE the various training tools being sought after more now than before? Or is this simply an assumption because due to things such as the internet discussions pertaining to them are now more readily accessible? There's nothing wrong with training ..... even though your words "inflicting training" make it sound a negative thing (unintended?). And even the various training tools that are available can be a more mild aversive than the "plain old collar and lead" which of course in themselves are restraint items. And they possibly could have handled/trained the dog properly in the first place but perhaps didn't know how (which is where "education" comes in again) or perhaps the handling problems developed due to outside influences that were beyond their control. And what is the "proper dog"? If a person cannot hold a 70kg dog that has been unexpectedly triggered into drive by a (eg) cat/possum or other prey animal by way of a flat collar and lead ............ are you saying this is the wrong dog for them? Or could it be that in all other respects the dog is the right dog for them but that they simply need a little extra help with being able to show the dog where its best advantage lies? IMO these two (highlighted) things are inseparable.

Also not forgetting that "these days" a dog is walked out on a lead and collar far more than ever was required before the current laws and when the majority of dogs were loose for much of the time. So walking on a loose lead is more of an issue/requirement than it ever was. Like the head collar? Generally speaking in relation to the average layperson, I think this is a typical trait of evolution in the "gadget" world. Forever hopeful that some other 'thing' will do the work and fix the problems for us. Different tools for different dogs for different owners for different reasons and selecting the right tool to fit the 'bill' for all of these often makes the job at hand easier. It still and will always remain what one DOES with the tool determines its success or not.

Bosko thank you. But it is YOU who has followed the program and put in the work and it is ONLY because you've done so that you are seeing results. Of course, we still have more work to do to progress with your dog to your ultimate goal, but you've done well in the progress you've made so you should take credit. Well done for your efforts. Oh - and so glad you've taken the fact that your "anxiety" thread went so far off topic, with good grace. Again, thank you.

I have read that the socialisation and learning experiences we expose our pups to in the critical period actually does have an effect (or affect, depending on whether the experiences have been + or -) so profound that it alters the shape of the brain as it develops. The shape of the brain is 'set' (for want of better word) once the dog reaches 16 weeks of age. There is I expect an amount of development that we can (and need) to produce in pups especially in an effort to counter genetic propensity. But I don't believe the genetic component (the "leaky hose" as in Kelpie-i's post) is altered and that under duress the genetic tendancy is likely to re-appear. The difference will be that with broad and good social experiences (the "tape" as in Kelpie-i's post) inside that critical period, the reactivity (in this instance, shyness) threshold may be lowered than if those social experiences were absent.

If the shyness is genetic then the propensity for it to arise to the surface is always there.

Excellent analogy Kelpie-i and I am in complete agreement.

Yeah - I think things got a bit confused in the 'heat of the moment'. Are you 100% sure Erny? I too was under the impression that other breeds were no longer welcome AT ALL. Spoke to a member who attends regularly, only a couple of weeks ago. She said other breeds still welcome.

Good to hear, Bruno06 ...... keep up the good work.

Yeah - I think things got a bit confused in the 'heat of the moment'.

I wasn't thinking or suggesting ANYWHERE near what you are thinking or suggesting here, Mrs D !!!!!! You should know that the mirrors for feng shui DO NOT get placed on the ceiling of their crates !!!!! Aaaaaghh!

I'm still here. I lurk and I read. Go Ollie dog

Let them know that tomorrow you will all be going shopping to pick out some nice crystals to hang and improve the 'balance'. This should have them agreeing to remove their crates off the coffee table. Oh ..... and perhaps ask them what colours they'd like their crates painted, as this has a bearing on chi energy too, I believe. And they'll either need a curtain at the rear of their crate to stop the 'good' energy coming in the front door and going straight through (although the crystals will help with that too). Or at least a mirror - which could double up in purpose as a "self-love" tool .

Yes they do. It's just that those with breeds other than Rottys don't have voting rights.

Thanks Kelpie-i. Yes, I have been known to help people down that way on more than a couple of occasions.

Oooooh yes, Kelpie-i. That is a fantastic approach and one I'm sure LP will find reaping great results. ESPECIALLY the feng shui suggestion. Once they realise this is not to their best benefit due to the position of the walls versus placement of the door they will surcumb to the aversive and I'm sure will come out of the closet .................................... so to speak.

Although some 'breeds' may be predisposed to being 'shy' it can also be a genetic factor in the lineage of the individual (breed regardless). Parents might represent an overall temperament, but that doesn't mean there can't be a throwback in the ancestory history. That's why it is good to not only check out the parents, which is important in itself, but where possible to trace back to the Grandparents and even to the Greatgrandparents.

I agree too. But lack of proper and sufficient socialisation can have the affect that they are less than what they are capable of being.

BC - when it comes to stock chasing and, in your case, stock killing, you are dealing with strong genetics in play - not to mention the fact they've now been reinforced. I would be suggesting deployment of RT training with an e-collar. Have someone versed in the use of the e-collar come out to see you and the dog first so you can take tuition in its use. Have a look at Lou Castle's web-site. In particular his "crittering" program. This will give you an idea on how the e-collar can be used to suit your purpose. Crittering

I think that's disgusting!!!! I mean ..... everyone knows that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. And how can he possibly expect dogs to endure such demoralising tactics. :shudder: too cruel. No! Not for me!!!! I'm more for the honest, direct "black and white" easy to understand approach. Simply tell them that YOU pay the bills and not them and if they want the good things in life they'll just have to tow the line!!!!! Wonder how many people have actually rung the number given to order their first free copy of the vid ;) .

DA - have you tried applying a correction for the barking and then, provided she remains quiet for (initially a short) duration, rewarding her (by taking her with you or whatever)?

Whoops! Don't know what happened then. Did an edit to previous post and POP!!!! Copied it into a new one. And now I notice the bottom part of my "confused" emoticon is missing. ;) Now it's not.

Sorry Sidoney. I don't think it was a typo. For some reason I had you as a "he" in my mind. Not sure that I was ever given a clue to thinking otherwise - if I did know better, then I'd forgotten ...... sorry . But now I know better. ;) Hope you didn't mind the gender mix up, just as I don't really mind about it when it happens to me. :p Lilli - I'd avoid the twitching for all the reasons you mention. I've got "driving" (from the ground) in my mind, but this would take some expert supervision and instruction. Have done it in the past with one of my boys and was great for control, flexion, carriage and forward movement. Could be tricky in a situation where your boy rears and you don't have enough room to move nor move him on though. So isn't something I'd work on until and unless he was trained to it.