Erny

Rhi - I can't help but recommend a behaviourist come out to you if only to assess the situation to ensure that the cause of your dog's barking is only attention seeking and not something that is based in anxiety. I don't know of anyone in Adelaide that I could recommend, but if you PM K9Force, he might know of someone he could recommend. He'd also be able to talk to you about anti-bark collars. In the meantime, can you keep the dog inside, at least at night time and very early morning, for the neighbour's sake? Let the Council know that you are sorting out getting a behaviourist to see you and taking steps to address your dog's barking issues. Also let them know once you have sourced a behaviourist and when the appointment is for. This will help you in reducing some of the pressure you feel from the Council. If your relationship with the neighbours is amicable, let them know too .... as well as any intermediatary steps you are taking to try to reduce the annoyance (eg keeping him indoors through the night).

IsabellaB ..... keep in touch here and let us know how you get on.

My understanding is that he is not at Hanrob anymore . I could be wrong though.

You really need a behaviourist to see you and the dog. But in the interim some things you could do : Be pack leader (to your dog AND to your children ........ actually, not joking .... ) All things on your terms (and the kids - with your direct and immediate supervision) and have this little guy learn to earn everything he receives. This is part of "leadership" on your part. Have all good things happen for the dog when the kids are around. Eg. Meals etc. Under your direct and immediate supervision, have the kids take on the responsibility for feeding. You MUST be there for this ... you can hold your 4 yo in your arms for this if necessary. Priority #1 is safety for the children. If you don't feel this is safe for them to do, don't go there. Crate train the dog. Make sure the kids know and respect that when the dog is in his crate that is HIS safe haven - a place where he can go and know he will not be disturbed by the children. There is more to do than this. By the sounds of it this little guy has either not been socialised sufficiently and/or has had a bad experience. I'm inclined to think the former, but that's only a guess. But what you do and how you do it will be best described/shown by someone who is able to assess the dog, as it will depend on his responses as to what is done, when and how.

Sometimes it helps people for more accurate timing. The clicker sound marks exactly the behaviour that has earnt the dog its treat. So - hand on muzzle : click : treat You need to "charge your clicker" first though. This means teaching the dog the "click" represents something good is going to follow. You simply do this by "click" then "treat". "click" then "treat". Repetitions of this will very quickly have your dog bring its attention to you when it hears the sound of the clicker. I personally don't usually clicker train - I use a verbal marker "yes". But some people find the clicker easier and clearer as it is a "constant" (ie sound does not change in duration or in volume). But even then, the dog needs to understand that "yes" means good job, reward coming. So you need to "charge your marker word" if you are going to use the verbal marker instead. Hope this makes sense and answers your query.

Don't know if this was aimed at me - but it's not the impression I was trying to give - my point of focus being mainly to try to make some clarifying differences when it comes to a bit in a horse's mouth and a lead on a dog. All bits deserve a sensitive hand, although the curb can require a bit more sensitivity, especially with the long side bars (dang it .... what are they called?). The longer they are, the more leverage and less effort to apply the same to maximum pressure. These bits are designed for exactly as you say, PF .... loose rein work. As opposed to the snaffle (I preferred the French Snaffle), which can be worked quite comfortably for the horse with contact (ie horse "on" the bit). Agree - any training equipment not understood and/or used properly has the potential to damage.

Hi Elmo. Moving house can make a big impact on dogs. Also, we tend to make some unintentional and even sub-conscious errors when the dog comes to a new home. (Like 'spoiling' them, as PW has made reference to.) Change of routine also would have an impact. If leadership is in place, this helps a dog adjust to these big changes in its life. I'm not suggesting leadership alone will do it, but it's the first place to start. If Wilbur was well socialised in the critical period (age 8-16 weeks) then simply having reduced amount of social contact should not result in growling/barking behaviours. To me it sounds as though Wilbur believes he has to look after both himself and you - so his perception of his heirarchy status has probably changed, or you are now simply seeing the more obvious signs of pre-conceived ideas he had but that are revealing themselves more as a result of these big changes in his life. I don't know Wilbur and there are various things we can do to re-establish ourselves as pack-leader and 'take the load' of responsibility away from our dogs. I would say this should be the first area you need to look at and making sure that all interactions you have with Wilbur are on your terms and that Wilbur must work for everything that he receives from you. There are other things to do in relation to be barking/growling, part of which now may have established itself as a learnt behaviour. Difficult to tell you in a step by step fashion over the internet and without being able to actually see Wilbur as much is dependant upon the dog and its temperament. What you do may also need to change in ways according to the change of Wilbur's perception of you as leader, as well. Certainly you will want to avoid inadvertently reinforcing Wilbur's barking/growling behaviours and part of the 're-training' will be about preventing it so that it does not continue to become 'learnt' and more ingrained. Taking Wilbur back to obedience will be helpful - but much depends on how he behaves there and in particular, what you do about it. So sometimes this can be a good thing, and sometimes not. Definately be calm but assertive/firm. Set boundaries and limitations. Wilbur needs these things from you.

Yes - if he has a problem with you opening/handling his mouth, then you start there. Once you've got it to some semblance of control, then start introducing him to other people being able to handle him. If his problem is having your hand over his nose, then start stimply by putting your hand over his muzzle, "click" and treat. Repeat until he isn't worried about this - very quickly it will become a cue to good things (ie treat). Then proceed to the next step.

Start with lifting his lips first .... then treat. As he gets good at this (shouldn't take more than a session or two) then start with opening his mouth ..... then treat. Then feeling gums etc. etc. Make sure it's all good for you, then yes, ask others to handle as well. Do this also with other things Vets are likely to do during the lifetime of your pup. Ears; lifting tail; picking up and handling paws etc. etc. etc. Clicker training can come in useful for this type of thing. The only thing I'm not keen on is having a person handle a dog's mouth and then doing the same to another and another and another, for health reasons.

I use a balance of the two ..... ie negative and positive. But ultimately I use whatever method best suits the dog and the exercise/skill I'm trying to achieve, at the time. In sports (eg. flyball; agility) it is all positive ........... no negatives. No check chain required or even desired there. I don't like dogs on check chains when going over agility simply because the dog could receive an accidental check from the chain either by slipping and the handler's knee jerk reaction to grab up the lead to stop them falling (eg off the dog walk) or from catching the chain on any part of the equipment. I would not be inclined to designate alternative days to a specific training method - this is likely to be very confusing to your dog.

Exactly what I would have said.

The OP needs to learn the principals of socialisation - ie not to overface the pup; what to do in the event the pup doesn't cope and how to recognise when the pup isn't coping. Also to identify when the pup is exhibiting inappropriate interaction so that she can teach the pup. This often doesn't come without supervision and instruction from someone who has the proper knowledge/qualifications. Not sure how many "friends with dogs" the OP has, but socialisation is about the pup being ok to meets lots of different dogs ... different colours, sizes, breeds and where possible ages. If the OP relies on only a couple of doggy friends, her pup's socialisation experiences to other dogs could be a bit limited. And the pup could grow to be ok with familiar dogs, but not unfamiliar dogs. My avatar girl (since passed, but adopted when she was an adult) had this problem. She was comfortable with other dogs once she'd had some time to get to know them (ie took more than just one visit) and whilst I was able to improve her confidence in this regard, it was impossible to fix 100% .... because they were critical period issues (ie insufficient socialisation in her early puppyhood ..... especially the period between 8-16 weeks. I'd certainly recommend going somewhere an instructor can help structure, supervise and explain socialisation techniques. This worked for you and for your dog, as it might for some others and theirs. But there are many out there where it hasn't and these are the ones we get to see .... because people find they have a problem that won't go away and they don't know what to do about it ...... and hope we can fix it. Did you know that the socialisation experiences we give our pups actually has an effect on the physical shape and size of the dog's brain during development. And the development of the brain is in that 8-16 week period. Outside of that, the brain has essentially completed growth development and whatever shape it has taken by that stage remains that way.

Bacchus ..... my heart goes out to you and I know that yours will be feeling torn and raw right now. It won't help to know, right now, that the pain will ease with time. Just remember that it will, if you don't know this already. You were selfless today. You loved Bacci a lot. Fly Bacci, fly. Enjoy without pain the gentle warmth and springy soft ground at the other side of the rainbow bridge.

I dont understand this bit erny. To use an extreme example for simplicity and clarity ..... Eg. Training to recall with no distractions might take less time than training to recall with (eg) another dog as a distraction. (Obviously, this will depend on what 'value' your dog places on the distraction.) Training to recall with a one dog distraction will take less time than training to recall with (eg) ten other dogs as a distraction. Training to recall with ten other dogs as a distraction will take less time than training to recall with (eg) ten other dogs running around and chasing each other as a distraction. Note: Technically speaking, by "training" in the use of the above 'distraction' examples, I really mean "proofing". You might have an (eg) 7 metre length lead (ie Long Line) that you no longer hold in your hand but have progressed to leaving it on the ground. It is there should you need to quickly pick it up in the event your dog doesn't respond to your recall command.

Sorry - I don't know what's happening. I'm also having trouble (since the recent "up-date" to the DOL forum) with using the numeral and bullet numbering system. Wonder if anyone else is experiencing the same? Anyway - the thread you are looking for is in the Rescue Forum (general).

Can't answer the first part of your question. Depends on the dog. Depends on the handler. Depends on the method and suitability to the dog. Depends under what distractions you need the reliability and what proofing each stage has been undertaken. I've never set my watch counter on it, but all of these things would influence. To answer the latter part of your question - yes. If this has occurred the dog wasn't ready for off-lead work and/or hadn't been trained towards being off-lead. You wean off the lead. Not simply remove it in one step. Example: On lead training. Long-line training. Long-line dragging - ie laying on ground in front. Work for the exercise compliance first. Distance second. If your pack status is in place, training has been all done correctly and with motivation but the dog has simply become "lead-wise", work with an RT can be invaluable. I'd recommend that you obtain tuition in relation to its correct and productive use first though.

Have posted a response to the thread in rescue. For all others interested, the link to the thread is HERE.

In a general sense, I agree here (now that use of "reprimand" and "criticism" has been clarified). I must admit, I'll "push" people to attain the improvement I know is possible but isn't being striven for, but will also try to tell them "good!" when I see some effort being made. Also agree. I try to find a moment to help them on an individual basis and usually indicate that I'll be over to help them once the rest of the class are practicing on an exercise. Either that, or having another instructor go over to assist them on that immediate problem. I still don't consider it reasonable to criticise a Club or its instructors for taking off their rose coloured glasses and actually training these people who might only want to socialise. After all, the Club is for dog training - that's what it is about. And if these same 'socialites' have dogs who are going well enough, then they wouldn't be receiving the criticism that's being suggested they do. Sorry, but I don't get this point. I think it is unfair to expect instructors to 'guess' at why they might be there (other than might reasonably be assumed - ie for training). And yet I've known of some of these people who clearly show disinterest, but then have become disgruntled because they think they are doing better than they are (eg. Recall .... by dragging their dog in via the lead) and should be passed up. If I adopted the assumption they are just there to socialise, they would receive no on-going attention for whatever period and their argument would then be that we are not training them. Assuming that these members have joined a Club who trains with trialling as an objective it would give an idea to the instructor as to what the objectives of their group are.

I'm not aware of one or any.

But then "beginners" banks up because people aren't moving through. Then the class size gets too large and the class attendees complain. Apart from which, class instruction is exactly that - where the instructor can show and explain; where you can have a practice so that the instructor can see you have the gist of what you need to do; where the instructor can tell and show you where or what you are doing wrong; and so that you can take that tuition home and practice it through the week with your new (or refreshed) knowledge in your head. As an instructor and on behalf of the dogs, I find it disheartening if people only practice training exercises when they are at class. Because this means that what goes on in between times is an inconsistency and that's not fair on the dog .... certainly confusing. And this is correct. It is also about the handler needing more practice at training. Co-ordination in lead handling; body language/position; timing etc. Much easier for the handler to practice that until they don't have to think about it too much so that when they do come to class and work under distraction, they will find handling the training far easier. Rhapsodical : You're right. But I'm going to make a very loose generalisation here - by no means am I directing this to you in particular, Rhaps. It is no fun for the instructor to reprimand all the time either. I love nothing more than when I see people who have put in the work - which usually shows with the improvement in the dog. Sometimes I feel like that shampoo add on TV ..... "yes .... Yes! .... YES!!!!!" (if you get my drift) whilst I'm dancing around in the middle of the class. THIS is what gives me a buzz. This is what inspires me to teach people. People who make the effort. And generally speaking, you can tell when that effort is being or has been made ........................ or if it's not. People might not enjoy being reprimanded "all the time" but IF this occurs, it does give pause to wonder if they've been making the effort to give the instructor opportunity for otherwise. Don't get me wrong - I agree that a little bit of encouragement goes a long way. But if a person is being "reprimanded all the time" I gotta wonder what that person's doing to receive it in the first place. I make a point of pointing out a person/s doing a great job, to the whole class. Not only because I think that person deserves the public praise, but to hopefully inspire others to try. Note: Don't know if "reprimand" is being used as an alternative word to "criticism", but that is the way I am interpreting it for the purpose of the quotes referred to. Rhapsodical : As an instructor it is not for me to presume that people are there simply for the social aspect. If they are in the class it is only right that I assume they want to learn. If they want to use classes for social interaction for their dogs only, then they should alert the instructor to that so that class instruction can be dedicated to those who are seeking it and not spend that time on people who don't want nor appreciate it. And sorry Rhaps ..... I selected two quotes both of which are yours. Completely coincidental and certainly not designed to be pointed.

Bacchus ..... have just returned from consults but have been thinking of you and Bacci throughout the day, knowing you would be at the Vets around 1.00 pm today. Thinking of you still.

As a behaviourist I can only answer to say that : It depends on the dogs in question; and It depends on the owner/handler; and It depends on the presence or absence of pack behaviour issues; and What that/those issue/s are.

Rom - it was a line of thought. An exploration of idea. Never silly. This is how 'new' ideas are born. .....so I hope that I don't annoy any one by following the thought through a little more Give an inch and one will take a mile .................... No - that's ok. But a heavier lead is hardly going to sensitise the dog. If anything it will simply bring him to be "lead wise" even more so than usual. And he would only have become accustomed to having something weight bearing on his collar. With the 'horse' analogy, the difference is that the weight of the rein might have a bearing on the bit which is in the horse's mouth. The 'curb' is a chain which runs under the horses lower jaw. When the reins weigh on the bit via the 7" arms/levers (I've forgotten what that part is called) there is A LOT of leverage. The smallest movement on the 'arms' causes quite a lot of movement (and very potentially painful) pressure on the horse's lower jaw from underneath (via the curb chain) and conversely but simultaneously, from above the lower jaw (via the bit in its mouth). This is nothing like simply having a heavy lead on a dog's collar.

Bacchus - you could try for a second opinion, particularly as the current diagnosis is so grim. How does your Vet know it is a ruptured disc? Xrays or some such? You could try consulting with a very good chiropracter and seek his/her opinion. I've had Vets diagnose anything from "nothing wrong" to "unfixable" and yet have successfully resolved skeletal issues with the gentle manipulation by a very knowing, chiropracter in my proximate location. ETA: I don't want to give you false hope. But whichever way this goes, you'll be comforted by the fact that you sought to remove any doubt ...... even if that doubt isn't present right now.

Wait for other responses to confirm mine, but I can't imagine any reason why rinsing with a very mild salt solution would hurt. A rinse with some saline (which you can purchase from a chemist) would offer comfort and relief, but not as good as mild salt solution (in boiled water - cooled to tepid/room temp) if there is an infection. If the condition continues beyond 48 hours following two or three times daily of rinse/wash, I'd be trotting off to see the Vet. Earlier, if the condition seems to worsen. ETA: Are the whites of the eye white, or pink/red? Is the inside of the lower lid healthy pink, or red?