Erny

You're on the right track - but don't wait UNTIL Charlie barks. Go out to him or call him in BEFORE he begins to bark. Could be that Charlie pairs the barking with receiving your attention/company - especially if the pause is not long enough. Assuming Oscar's barking is not born from anxiety, and if you go for an antibark collar, be careful with running the two dogs together. If they are in close proximity to each other and one receives the stim, that dog could pair it to the other dog (and react accordingly) or re-direct its excitement/tension to the other dog. I think you said in your earlier post that the dogs receive plenty of exercise for both physical and mental stimulation? Oops! I see you've said that in your post just now. Good that you're doing TOT. Maybe you're already doing this, but if he (not sure which dog we're talking about now) barks at you, immediately turn and go inside (with the food) and ignore him for a period. Repeat TOT from the very beginning each time.

I'd want to know that my dogs would display the behaviours I ask for even in the absence of food. Otherwise, the obedience taught is only going to be apparent with food as a bribe. I want them to do it for me. Simply because I ask it.

PW - I think this needs to be narrowed down somewhat ...... Is Oscar used to being by himself?

PM Kelpie-i. She got Pete the Pug (remember the TV show - "Celebrity Trainers" I think it was called) to do a retrieve. Pete initially had sub-zero interest in picking up anything in his mouth, let alone hold it and bring it back, yet she did achieve this.

I know you say the dogs have a big back yard, but I need to ask what sort of exercise (physical AND mental stimulation) do they receive? Also need to ask what and how they interact with you? De-barking is controversial, as you say. It should be the absolute last resort after all other areas have been exhausted. In this, I'd recommend you seek the services of a behaviourist experienced in matters of barking. It sounds to me that you are stressed given that you have the onorous (but also joyful) task of looking after baby. But there are other options that might be able to be tried, if you will. Eg. Environment enrichment; Dog Walkers; screening the fence to reduce view; putting up a barrier fence to prevent proximity to boundary fence barking; Dog Training School; anti-bark e-collars; to name a few. You've mentioned that the dogs don't bark excessively. My understanding is that the Council should not be supporting complaints from a neighbour if the barking is not excessive - although I guess that much depends on the attitude and policies of the Council. Ask the Council for details upon which your neighbour has based his complaint - eg. what days, what times and for what duration is he suggesting the dogs are barking. Is he the only complainent? Some Councils seek complaints from 3 different sources before they will action. Having a behaviourist who can do an assessment and report (even informally) to the Council can be helpful. Knowing that you are taking steps towards the reduction of the barking via behaviourist direction can often help with the Council understanding that you are doing what you can to assist, co-operate and resolve your neighbour's cause for complaint and it may induce the Council into giving you more time as well as open-mindedness. Is there a partner who can assist in providing the dogs with activities that will help satiate your dog's mental and physical requirements? As I mentioned above - simply having a big back yard is not enough. The dogs need something to do.

Which is often where we 'humanise' them. Great post, Rom. I love phylosophy :D

Yes - I recently read this in Coppinger as well. I temporarily tucked it away in the far corners of my mind - the thought of keeping up with who comes from who otherwise became more confusing than it already is!!! Thanks for the link ..... will have a look at it after dinner. Hamburger and fish and chips night tonight. Yummmmmm.

Kelpie-i ...... not sure what I "believe" at the moment, but it does sound plausible. Coppinger talks about all other 'species' of dogs then representing 'races' who developed into what they are today as a result of their individual habitats. (Which is pretty much what GottaLoveaLab has hypothesised above.) I need to re-address this by further study and to also refresh my memory on what I've already read in the past. Too true.

Sardog - Motivational Dog Training

Excellent thought, Miranda. This can prove a handy asset in many different circumstances and for many different reasons.

No - hadn't heard this. I did attend his seminar recently and at the risk of sounding arrogant (unintentionally), I came away with having learnt nothing from it - zip. That has never happened to me before ..... even seminars that weren't that great, I usually leave with some snippet or other and that makes it worthwhile.

Yes - Good point and I pondered this too. I've even pondered on whether it is "fear" you are really seeing - or whether it is some ritualistic behaviour that your dog is showing. Exploring by excluding the check chain from the equation and also by randomising your routine will help you identify.

By the sounds, you've got a fair amount of work to do. One of the first things I'd investigate is your leadership to your dogs - from the dogs' perspective. They are going to really need this from you especially given their impending move to a completely new environment and it is important you don't overlook this. I'd also be making some trips in to more built up areas and work on incremental desensitisation. Assuming they didn't receive socialisation to things such as the noises heard in the suburbs; unfamiliar people; etc. etc. in their "critical period" they are unlikely to have these good experiences in their memory, to draw on. If they are overwhelmed to suburban/city noises and events, it might prove too much - hence some small but frequent visits would be a safer introduction to help avoid sensitisation. Training for reliability (especially in recall) sounds like it needs some work as well. This is something you can start now, but as you can (and should) use a long line until the recalls are reliable under the common distractions that you will encounter, this is not something that must be established before your move - it can be ongoing after the move as well. It is hard to know how easy or difficult it will be for your dogs to adapt as I don't have the privilage of knowing your dogs, their temperaments, etc. But I would recommend that all the desensitisation work you do be done incrementally (as it should be). It should be about your dogs only being faced with an intensity they can cope with - so you are looking for your dogs to NOT react, rather than pushing the intensity until they react. I'd suggest it would do you well to get hold of a trainer/behaviourist who can show you what to do, how and when. A virtual book could be written here trying to cover all contingencies and tailor to your dogs. A trainer/behaviourist would be able to assess your dogs, read their body language and then show you what to do. You'll probably find this less daunting yourself, as to even read here you might be alarmed simply for the detail in the written word. Yes - you've got work to do by the sounds of it. But it is not impossible and it might not even be too difficult (hard to tell without knowing your dogs). You've made a fantastic first step - and that's asking before you go. Although if the pups missed out on broad socialisation in the first 8-16 weeks of their lives, it means it's unlikely to be quite as easy as it might have been. ETA: I often recommend to people when they move home to take their dogs for a good walk around the new environment before they do all else (like unpack etc.) I'd recommend this to you too, but it does also depend on how reactive they are to their new environment. This is where having a trainer/behaviourist who has met and assessed your dogs can be helpful. ETA: It's even good to take your dogs for walks in and around their new environment before the move, so that when you get there for good, they are entering an environment that they are at least part way familiar with. Also, when you do arrive, please avoid 'sooking' to your dogs if they are appear worried. Reward confident behaviour. Ignore unconfident behaviour. Treat the move as 'matter of fact'. Be calm and be assertive. ETA: It would probably do you well to join up with a Club in which you can engage your dogs in activities for mental and physical stimulation and a reputable obedience club to help coach you in teaching your dogs obedience and reliability in obedience. This will go towards mental stimulation as well.

I agree - it is something that needs to be read slowly and perhaps incrementally, to an extent. Yes - it was Coppinger. I like his thoughts - he tends to think outside the square and questions the findings of the founders even though their thoughts and interpretations have been accepted and believed for a long time. I think he writes that Jackals are the only Canis species (except for dogs) who sweat through their feet. Given that the Canis familiaris (dogs) species sweat through their feet, it does give pause to wonder on the connection between the two. (Mind you, I love Wolves and much prefer to think that dogs decend from them rather than Jackals, but that's just sentimentality at work and it would be deletorious to dogs for us to refuse to think and explore otherwise.) But I also wonder - it is written that all Canis species (ie Wolves; Jackals; etc) decended from some other more ancient Canis geno (hope I'm using the right words here). Now, if that's the case, perhaps the ability to sweat through paws is a throw-back from it. Could it be that Wolves, whilst not possessing this ability, threw this physiological trait on? In which case, it might be able to be ruled out as 'evidence' (term used loosely here) of dog's decendance from Jackals. ETA: I am not suggesting that "sweating through paws" is the only factor that has bearing to the suggestion of dogs' decendance from Jackals. It's just one thought on one thing and I'm really only thinking aloud. I don't expect an answer. I'd love this.

The only time I have seen a dog not appreciate the check chain has been because the owner has been removing it incorrectly. You need to make sure the size is correct for your dog (for safety as well as for good timing in training). When you take it off is it snug and do you use two hands and remove it in one go over both of your dog's ears at the one time?

I presume you are his main carer? You could try getting other members of the family to share in this. In fact, initially, get them to take over completely (ie feeding; grooming; walking) for a while.

Sorry - nothing's jumping out at me at the moment, with what is written. It can be really difficult at times, tracing back to a possible difinitive moment that may have been the original trigger for the behaviour. Can you identify ANY pattern on the days she is ok, and the days she is not? Eg. Rain/windy days -vs- calm days. In kennel/run for longer period -vs- shorter period. High exercise days -vs- low exercise days. You work part-time. When did this begin? Has there been a change in your work structure of recent times? Does she share her kennel run with your other dog? What's their relationship like? What's the other dog's age and sexual status (entire; desexed) Was she treated any different (eg. housed inside or whatever) whilst you were treating the UTI? Generally, the answer is in there somewhere ..... but it can take a bit of seeking back (which I see you've already tried) - sometimes some 'outside' prompting from others can help.

How long have you had this rescue?

If they have learnt this method of survival and know no other, why would they chose otherwise unless their survival insisted on it? Like you, RM, I enjoy the banter of ideas and thoughts on this type of subject. Would be great to do it round a table and over a wine or two.

Ok - I need to hit the books on this one as it is not an area I've studied intently. But don't dog packs still work as a team when hunting/flushing small prey such as rabbits etc.? I agree Am ... there are lots of holes in my suspicion about strong pack order instincts resurfacing if survival decreed it and I suspect that there would be numbers of dogs lost from the pack in the process of them finding that very ancient instinct. I'd love to see a real study on it too ............... although I don't think I would be able to stand it and it would be me rushing out throwing food to the starving. It is that. Being able to do so is on my 'wish list'. *sigh* If only.

PAX - we don't know yet how much time this dog spends in the kennel/run. Perhaps the owner spends hours during each day working/exercising it. Maybe. Maybe not. But I don't think we should be jumping to conclusions yet.

It sounds as though the behaviour is based in anxiety - but that's not to automatically suggest it is separation related. Have any routines (eg. a reduction in daily exercise; someone moved in/out of the family home; etc. etc. etc.) occurred? Have there been any bad storms of late? Anything?

I can only suspect that many of the pack structure instincts would return to a closer assembly as that of the wolves, on the assumption of course that the dogs released to the wild survived long enough for this to occur. But these are only my thoughts. Nothing scientifically founded or read up on. Sorry Am - I am being simplistic in my pondering. All is reliant on the assumption that the dogs would survive long enough for deeply ingrained (but perhaps forgotten) pack instinct to emerge. Obviously, it would be an impractical and inhumane experiment to take dogs who do not possess the skills necessary for survival without humans and send them out to fend for themselves completely. The necessity to hunt as a group was one factor suggested that influenced the advantage towards having a strict 'pack' code. It wasn't merely exclusive to this though - there is also the pressure of the pack remaining from harm. There are also other factors - all having a bearing on being best for survival of the pack. I remember one example being when a member (eg) dies/is injured, having a "vertical" pack structure makes it more efficient for the 'next' dog in line to fulfill the void. When you're in potentially life threatening elements and environments, it wouldn't go towards survival of the pack to frequently need to re-shuffle and sort pack order. You'd want that to occur as swiftly and as smoothly and with the least amount of friction/tension possible. I will need to re-source the information and refresh my memory for more detail.

What's your dog's behaviour like when he is separated from the others even though there is no bitch in season? Wondering if this could possibly be a separation related behaviour (which is born in anxiety) rather than a 'sexually' related response. Is your dog ok being on his own? Have you trained for independence?

My point being though that in this instance/reference there remains a human impact on their behaviour. What you've written is talked about in one or the other (or both) of the books I've mentioned in an earlier post (Lorenz and/or Coppinger) - the difference in pack structure where hunting (as opposed to scavenging) is a primary necessity for survival. If the human settlements were not available to them, what then would instincts demand of them in the sense of pack structure .......................... Thanks for the info regarding us being half banana. Puts a different slant on the image of one 'peeling' one's clothes off. Wonder if that's an instinct that remains, albeit weakly and semi-forgotten. PS ;) Now get back to muscles in dogs ...... but don't forget to pop in here later. ;)