deerhound owner

Yeah Claire is great, I think she may also be the one working on the inbreeding pedigrees thingy but don't quote me on that. they shouldn't just say inbreeding = bad. The IW study I posted earlier shows that if you go all the way back to the origins of the breed IW are severely inbred, something like they are all related to 6 dogs, yet they are not showing any signs of inbreeding depression, no decrease in life expectancy or litter size (the big inbreeding effects shown in other species). The author suggests that the deleterious genes have actually been purged along the way making them less likely to appear. This goes back to the baby steps thing. It is not practical to look at the health vs inbreeding relationship of every dog in every breed it would take you years and years and by then the results would be irrelevant anyway. So first you need to look at a few select breeds... take the ones that have very low numbers and the ones that have high numbers and work out their effective population size. Study 1! Then you can collect health information for one or two breeds with low effective populations and one or two with high effective populations and see if there is a difference. Study 2! Then you can think what would improve the situation based on the results. If for example you have high inbreeding, low effective population and a high incidence of deleterious genes in a breed then you can look to bring in new lines from overseas or if none are available you may have to look at outcrossing for a generation to a similar breed without the deleterious genes in question or open the studbook to working line registers etc etc. So several studies later, something that doesn't seem relevant to the dogs themselves may end up greatly improving their health. *disclaimer - this is only an example i'm not saying this is what they will find they may find the opossite like IW and then bringing in new genes may actually introduce problems. It's important to remember that lots of dogs doesn't = a high effective population. If you have 10 dogs but they are all very closely related, your effective polutation size is only 1, where as if you have 10 dogs that are from completely different lines your effective population may be 10. Breeds with very small numbers are often much more aware of this and work hard to bring in new genetics.

The first point of call would be to go and talk to an expert in the field at the uniersities. They should be up on all the latest literature and if it's not their exact field they have access to literature databases they can search to find past research. It shouldn't be too hard to get in touch, you can usually find staff lists on university websites with lists of their research interests and their contact details. Just ring them up and say can I set up a meeting to discuss X Y or Z. I know it goes against the grain but a meeting with Paul M might be helpful and even if he isn't able to help he might be able to put you on to others that are. The point at which you say OK that is done and dusted changes for each senario so there's no hard and fast rule. If you have a well designed study with minimal flaws that addresses exactly your question you might be able to say fair enough move on, but if it was done in a different population or a different country or there were some major issues with the methodology the study may need repeating to be more relevant to your situation. It would be rare to read a study that didn't conclude with what future research needs to be done to take the next step in the knowledge so it's uncommon that things are just left at that becasue people think they have learnt all there is to know. That said they are often left at that because they run out of money or lose interst or the field moves on to the next buzz topic. Hope that makes sense. I would be happy to have a search of the databases for you to check for past research if you are interested in particular topics. Feel free to PM me if you prefer.

aww shucks I try to stay out of the politics as much as possible and accept that not everyone is going to have the same views as myself and we can all be friends anyway. Maybe i'm naive I will pass the information about the MDBA awards to my neuroscience supervisor, he has a few students working on dog stuff.

You told me about this several months ago. To be honest, I didn't know what to make of it and still don't. I wasn't really sure what kind of people you were wanting to give recognition to and what it would mean to get it. I guess I'm not convinced it would be a good thing to be singled out in this context. Ill bite why wouldnt it be a good thing for someone to be given a pat on the back for something they have done which contributed to doing good things for our dogs? I'm not sure either

So do you mind me asking why no one is interested in using the Dog owners Choice Awards to give you guys a bit of a pat on the back and a plug so more people get to see what you are doing - maybe generate a bit of interest for some sponsorship etc? www.mdbaawards.net.au Thats a good idea. I wasn't aware there was a science/research related category. Prehaps you could send a little blurb about it to all the vet faculty deans. I'm sure they would be happy to pass it on to their dog researchers.

Geez I didnt want to make anyone think I was under valuing what they do and I hope no one thought I was thinking of anyone or anything in particular but in all honesty now Ive seen your figures there are definitely some which just dont seem to justify the time and work - and money thats needed to get to the other end. The study results may be interesting but not really stuff thats going to make any difference for us ordinary dog owners or breeders. I guess also it would depend on what in particular you were studying but Ive got things Id love to see looked at by credible researchers relating to health, husbandry, immunity, environmental impacts etc. Quite often when we do spot results we sort of go - so what? or Why did we need a study for that - it was common knowledge etc. Maybe if when the studies are being undertaken if we had a Dah dah this is what Im doing and why and this is how you will be able to use the results would help too. I think this has been very much neglected in the canine area and obviously its much to do with money but no one really seems to be able to bring the two of us together so the chances of spotting a study which has any real significance for what we are trying to achieve is rare. Anyway Im not trying to make you guys feel un appreciated but I think it would be good if we could generate some funds and get some stuff going we could really use. Id just like to see us talking more I guess. Thats a good place to start. There are just so many things I can think of which could make a real difference to how we do things and the real welfare of the dogs that we desperately need looked at. HeHe I was only joking Steve, not feeling unappreciated at all. I know what you mean about results where you go... well duh who doesn't know that? The problem with scientists is they need evidence about everything and you can't publish anything based on assumed knowledge. And anecdotal evidence blasphamy!! Say you wanted to do a study to show that cutting down trees was reducing habitat for possums and they are dropping in numbers. Assuming no previous studies. First you need to show that possums live in trees (study one takes about a year). Then you need to show that the possums are actually dropping in numbers (longitudinal study prob take 2-3 years) finally you need to show that it is actually the cutting down the trees that is causing the problem and not something like air pollution etc etc (at least another year) so now it's 4 years later and all you have shown is that cutting down trees is bad for possums...DUH! the important thing is you could now go to the goverment or the forestry and say "oy stop cutting the trees down it's bad" and you would have evidence to back it up. I totally agree that talking is a massive first step. If you give some examples of what sort of questions you're interested in I'll have a look and see if there's anything out there already that might help.

Is that the rotation honours or the science one that goes for a year? I'm still trying to get my head around how vet science courses work. I am not sure how anyone can do an honours project in 8 weeks. I did mini projects in undergrad that went longer than that. We had an above credit average cut-off, but in reality the supervisors were the limited resource. Most supervisors opted for the distinction average or above students. Some were known for not even considering supervising you unless you were at the top of the cohort. I meant the ones that go for a year, the Bioscience ones go for a year as well and you have one or two days a week to work on them. That's just my experience from USYD though. Yes you need to be aware of peoples biases but they can also work in your favour because that makes people interested and exited about doing the research. Say you wanted to do a study to determine if purebreds are healthier than crossbreds hypothetically of course. You can get purebred advocates on side cause they want to prove purebreds are better and you can get corssbreed advocates on side cause they want to prove crossbreeds are better. The results can then speak for themselves. I'll take Reverend Jo's example but i'll call it outcrossing because I think that is what was meant. Say one scientist wants to do outcrossing to improve health but others think it won't help at all. The only way to test this is to try it in a small controlled population. If breeders turned around and said..ok lets give it a go in a small controlled way to see if it does improve anything then the scientists are right there keen to do the research. If breeders stick there fingers in their ears and say LALALA i'm not listening to anything you say you don't know anything. Then it will get to the point where they do something drastic like bring in legislation and they will listen to the scientists when the do it because they are sounding the most reasonable and are the "experts".

Very true. I can't speak for other courses but I know that for the Animal and Veterinary Bioscience course at USYD they have too many students for honours projects so only let students who get above a certain mark do them. It's no guarentee but at least you less likely to get a no brainer Companion animal studies are also very popular with the students so you may get to pick and choose a bit. I am also looking at doing a few studies that interest me in my own time. It seems to be the only way as I'm pretty sure the funding bodies are not interested in the COI of deerhounds what effect is has had on their health. Hopefully I can get the guy who did this in Wolfhounds to help me and hope even more we get similar results Link to the IW study for anyone thats interested linky

snap

Yes as a currently unemployed canine research scientist I can tell you that without funding research doesn't happen and unfortunatley getting funding to do with dogs is not easy. To get funding on exactly what you want, you need to put a proposal in to the uni's and state how much you are willing to contribute, if you want to be sure the project is done you need to commit the whole lot like the guide dog people do. For a ball park: A PhD you are looking at $22 000 for salary plus say $5-10 000 project costs a year for 3 years A postdoc researcher you are looking at $75-80 000 salary a year plus project costs and can be for 1 to 3 years ish. For a staff of a university (lecturer, assoc prof etc. to do it, you may not have to pay a salary (not 100% sure here) but you would need to cover all project costs AND make sure they have time to do it AND make sure it's something they are interested in. indusrty supported projects can get more of a look in with the big funders (ARC, NHMRC) which usually require the "industry" to commit half and then they match it. it's one way to keep costs down but you are then subject to the will of the grant reviews and there are no guarentees. The other option is master or honours projects conducted in the vet faculty. They usually don't come with a scholarship/salery but would need running costs of say $5-10 000 for one year. A bit of money for the researcher ($5-10 000) is always appreciated as well. You would also have to find an academic to support it as the student would need an in house supervisor. Steve, could you give some examples of research you would like to see undertaken. I personally don't think my PhD was out of touch or will not make a difference but maybe that's just me

I have a friend in sweden who is doing cognitive bias testing in dogs. I could give you her contact if you want. She might know how long training takes etc?

Muuummm the dog died again

There aren't a lot of breeders out there who encourage people not to desex their pup and to get involved in breeding if some of the responses on DOL are anything to go by. I understand why some of the breeders are like this but even if every vet started encouraging "responsible breeding" how many people could get their hands on a good example of a main register dog/bitch that wasn't desexed before it left the breeders?

Is there anyway you could have dog but only keep it in the house and not let it into the backyard. Kind of like if you had an apartment, you would just have to take the dogs for regular walks and toilet breaks etc? If the cat is ok inside it might be an idea?? I currently live in an apartment and am dogless at the moment. We have two cats in an attempt to stop me going crazy but it's not quite the same I know.

Corvus, have you asked Dr C Wade? she is another one of those evil scientists that works with the scary Dr McGreevy :p She also has a Nova Scotia duck tolling retriever which she shows and breeds (I think he has a litter on the ground at the moment). You'll never convince people that have preconcieved ideas about a person so don't mind them and move on I have some breeder friends that I will ask for you too. Prehaps you could post this in the breeders forum aswell?

Me too but if you have enough thats fine.

Can you please add me to the list too Steve? I'm currently between jobs so have a bit of time on my hands although that may change next year. We actually own our apartment in central sydney and it was still a fight to be allowed to have two cats because one of the other tenants thought it would encourage other tenants to apply to keep a dog...WTF????? I would love to add a dog at some stage but know that my chance of getting permission is slim to none when I already have two cats. Anyway suppose I'm saying it's not all renters with the problems although they are probably in the majority. Actions that target strata management would also help.

Improving the availability of rental properties that accept pets would also help I think. I'm not sure how you would go about it though. Prehaps there needs to be a company like the defence housing one where people buy investment properties for people in the defence force with guarenteed income and all that. Are there any millionaires out there wanting to set up a investment properties for people with pets company? It's certainly a high demand market you would just need some level of assurance for the buyers that the place wasn't going to be trashed. Finding pet friendly strata would also be an issue.

Life expectance is about 8 years, 10 is good going although I have heard of some lines getting to 14 but thats amazing! Our boy in the photo is not desexed as we occassionaly drag him around a show ring (much to his disgust). Our girl we desexed around 12 months from memory but other deerie people will be better able to answer. There is some good info in the breed 101 thread or for a complete inundation try www.scottish-deerhound.com. If you are used to the energy levels of an amstaff and husky you would have to keep checking if a deerhound is still alive. There are a couple that go to Erskine Park occasionally if you want to introduce the OH to them

Jist read e' poem. BAH! See whats happens to me, "canna" stop "spiken" Doric "noo". OH is going to have great fun tormenting me when he gets home. Try again... Just read the poem, awww. A Scottish deerhound will deffinatly be my next dog when the kids grow up, I havent seen one in 5years though. I miss their scruffy good looks There are a few in NSW if you know where to look but most are down in Victoria cause it's a bit hot up here for them. Ours spend all summer flaked out in front of the aircon thats put on just for them... it's a tough life Lol, I would dearly love to have a deery in my life. *Covers Bonnie's and Indie's ears.* They have always been my favourite breed but OH was set on bull breeds. Since Indie has come along, he has now fallen in love with fluffys/scruffys lol. Oh and I need to clarify...the reason I say "when the kids grow up" has nothing to do with the kids being knocked over, more worried they would trip over/fall onto a Deerhound puppy and injury the pups joints , mum of the year or what?! Yeah they can be a bit gangly and easy to trip over. We call ours furry speed humps because thats how mobile they are between 9am to 4pm and 5pm to 7am. Very active dogs.... NOT

Jist read e' poem. BAH! See whats happens to me, "canna" stop "spiken" Doric "noo". OH is going to have great fun tormenting me when he gets home. Try again... Just read the poem, awww. A Scottish deerhound will deffinatly be my next dog when the kids grow up, I havent seen one in 5years though. I miss their scruffy good looks There are a few in NSW if you know where to look but most are down in Victoria cause it's a bit hot up here for them. Ours spend all summer flaked out in front of the aircon thats put on just for them... it's a tough life

I thought it might have been scottish rather than a deliberate attempt at slang??

I think he might be a deerie super cute though

A great thread, my cousins used to have ferrets and I used to love the way they could tie themselves in knots and turn around in very tight spaces. On the other topic, I studied animal science and had to visit an abbatoir. It actually made me feel better about eating meat as they were killed so effectively and quickly they really didn't see it coming. They certainly couldn't see the other animals in front of them go down either but obviously there must still be some smell. I actually think most lamb and beef is raised well in Australia as long as you avoid anything that has been through a feedlot. I'd much rather eat that than chicken that has a whole lot of issues, even in free-range due to the speed at which they grow. Free range pork is obviously the best way to go but be aware of companies that say "bred free range" (I think Otway is one) as they only require the sows to be outdoors, once the piglets are weaned it's straight into a barn system they go. Better than nothing but still a bit missleading I think. Feather and bone is a butcher in sydney specialising in humanely grown produce with links to all the producers. You buy on the internet and they deliver once a week.

There is a pharoah hound for adoption here which is apparently ok with cats, young but probably out of the puppy stages. Might be worth a mention http://www.canberrapoochrescue.org.au/CPR_...rge.html#Velvet