Tonymc

PF,your post makes perfect sense.I may be splitting hairs here but I query the view of Halti"s being even management.To me they are more a masking of a problem. Maybe it is management by default? Tony

Aphra,very very good post!!!! Tony

Some aspects of the Dog world are ironic or a paradox in my view.Some that i see are. Some People in training the Dog to come to them,are actually teaching the dog to runaway. The more we take from a Dog,the more he will give us. What ironic aspects do you see? Tony

No trouble Issis.Another dimension is that you could also use obscure or unusual words for commands unlikely to be used by others. tony

Issis,if you have other people you know who are willing to act around your Dogs as you suggest so the Dogs learn the intended lesson. Basically as Kavik said you can start with each Dog separately on the Lead.I would start off with the distraction of the other person,s at a distance.Have the Person call out a command to the Dog.Have the Dog standing or sitting beside you.Have of course the motivator for each Dog handy.When the Dog ignores the command reward immeditately of course.In the event of the Dog taking notice of the other person, issue a Shock to the Dog but do it with disassociation.Having the Dog on your left you can have the Lead running across you and around your hip to your right hand.When giving the shock or in other words a quick sharp jolt on the lead,the trick is to not let the Dog see you doing it.This way you disassociate yourself from the shock and the dog will not attribute it to you and will not build resistance towards you.As The Dog is not aware that your the cause of the shock, he will attribute it to his emotional state and his focus at the time.As soon as he gives you his attention back after the shock reward and praise. As he gets the knack of it,you would of course move the other Person in closer and then possibly use multiple People. Once he has things in his grasp,you could also go to an off lead siutation with other People wandering around nearby with you there as well.You could reward the dog,play a game really attract the Dog and have the other People totally ignore the Dog so they are of no value. Tony

Issis,it would also help the lesson if you enlist other People to act under your guidance. You need to increase your attactiveness to the Dogs and really lower the value of the other People to the Dogs. Tony

What motivates these Dogs?a Toy,Ball,food or what? tony

No probs Isiss.How many Dogs do you have as each would have to be put through training to ignore others separately. Tony

Isiss, correct me if I am wrong but I read your post this way.You want your Dogs to answer to commands only given by yourself,Husband and Children.Your wanting the Dog/s to ignore anybody else outside of Family.Have I got your context right? tony

What do I consider management?I consider management to be the providing of Food,Shelter,Water and proper pack management.This management supplies the Dog with his basic needs.So a management tool to me is proper pack enviroment. A training tool could be one of hundreds of things.Ranging from more abstract to the physical.An abstract training tool would be the self and a Collar would be an example of a physical tool. Tony

Midol,big difference between a do-gooder and what your doing.Most do-gooders run on very little knowledge and very little awareness. You have realised there may be a problem and are getting expert help to evaluate and treat. Tony

Java,this is a self rewarding behaviour.There are different options availible.I know hinsight is cheap but its always easiest to supervise Pups when inside and not let undesirable behaviours take root. As long as it makes the dog feel good he will keep doing it,so one has to change it to a negative for the Dog.Not all these options may work and a few different approaches may be needed. Options are to put a barrier round the Bench on the top of the bench so he cannot get room to for his paws to support himself.Barrier on the Floor to keep him back off the Bench.Only trouble with Barriers is that once they are removed,then there is a big chance the unwanted behaviour will resume. Other option is to put Dog on Collar and reasonably long lead.I of course do not know the lay out of your house,but I assume there are nooks and crannies where you can watch the dog from but remain out of his sight. Timing and vigilance is required here.Feed the Lead out so the Dog can move around.Let him wander off but watch from your hidden or obscured position.Sooner or later he will go to put his paws on the bench or table.Immeditately that he does place his paws on bench or table give him a shock.A Shock is twofold as it is a jolt on the collar and an interuption to the flow of drive. When he backs off from the bench or table, watch him as he will try again.When he try"s again repeat the process.Your conditioning in his mind a negative association to the bench and table. Tony

Diva,the Do-gooder bit was not meant to be snide.I tell it as it is.There are do-gooders out there for sure.There are do-gooders on this site,thats life. Yes education is the way to go, but we cannot educate eveybody. Tony

Dva inrelation to the point you raise.Yes a Problem can have many causes or factors.A Problem can be multifaceted. Yes some just do not know that is true. But some are certainly driven by undealt with Human issues.I will give an example.A Woman I met suffered abandonment both both Parents. Humans have the inborn need to be loved and accepted.In this Woman this need was never satisfied or filled.So she goes through life with a desperation to be loved and accepted.Because of the fear of being Abandoned again,she kept Humans at a distance and turned to what her Sub-concious figured was a safer alternative to satisfy this need.The safer alternative to her was Dogs. So this Woman driven by this unsatisfied need got involved in rescuing dogs.She would create Storys about how badly the Dogs she rescued, had been abused in the past.Were the storys of the Dog"s abuse true?No!!Not at all.It was all about her issues.Why did she create the Storys?She did so to make herself feel more needed!!!In her mind, the worst past the Dog had the more the Dog needed her and the more accepted she felt. Tony

Thank you all again for some wonderful input!!!Rom, a classic reply from you illustating so well the very thing I am talking about!!! Midol,ol buddy if anybody says anthing I am going to say you put me up to it!!!!!LOL .No I wont really only have a stir!! Again thank you as I love reading the diverse opinions and input. Tony

Not only on this site, but out in the real World I get sick of hearing about Fireworks and Storms!!!!I personally like both.I love getting out and watching a Storm and seein the power of Nature!!! So many get on this site and rant on and on about Fireworks and Storms and the effect it has on there Dogs.I guess the old Human Nature mainly seems to be reactive and not proactive.Many wait till something happens and then react and never plan ahead. Some get really carried away about the Fireworks and say they should be banned!!!!I say why should the majority miss out on something because of a problem a minority has!!!! I know it is harder with an older Dog that may tend to run on past experience, but I wonder why do people with Pups and younger Dogs not proof them against Storms and Fireworks?I get our dogs out,during Storms and so on.get them into Drive and have a big game with them so the Storm becomes a positive to them. Tony

Thank you all kindly for the input.Seems to be a common problem.In my case,some of the do-gooders pushing this misdiagnosis of past abuse were well and truly driven by their own undealt with Human issues. Tony

I have like many of us,run into all sorts in the Dog World.Some know a bit,some know alot and some are woeful. I would like a Dollar for everytime I have met a do-gooder who claims their Dog was abused by somebody in the past.Sometimes of course this may be true, but many times the person making the statement has no clue whatsoever and it is a total misdiagnosis. I was looking through a few sites and came across this which I think says it well. Quote from Beth Bradley. Too often, people equate setting boundaries and being the pack leader with compulsion or being tough on their dogs. I see it more often with rescue dogs and their owners. Owners who rescue their dogs obsess about what a sad life their dog had and what must have happened to in the past. In turn, they allow the dog to get away with anything without any correction or minimal correction. These owners are “protecting” their dogs from the past. The problem is that they are transmitting fear and weakness. No dog wants to follow a weak leader; therefore, these dogs (a) begin to feel comfortable in their new environment and (b) begin to take over the role as pack leader thereby showing behavioral problems that did not rear their head before. Tony

Jaybeece,you have answered your own question.You state.he wants to be top Dog.You also mention you have to quote you,been a bit soft lately.Inorder for Dogs to be consistent,we have to be consistent. Have a check of your leadership.Many times we may think we are employing good leadership, but it may not come across to the Dog in that way.An example is Merriment"s post in this section. When your talking about another Dog are you meaning in the context of you walking two Dogs at the same time? Tony

I think she does not have a full grasp of the situation herself.Perhaps the whole book might have more appropriate information?The excerpt above is missing the point on many basics. Lablover,your not cheating,your just using commonsense.No matter whether a Dog or Horse, if I am going to compete in an activity I will seek out a line that have the strongest drive inrelation. Tony

Rosegold,another option that I use is very much like Kitkat"s approach.I buy cheap nappy rash creme from the Chemist that contains Zinc. Tony

Vpeewee,a Dog does not make judgement on whether a behaviour is good or bad.He just does!!!!It is up to us to dictate what behaviours we want.A Dog will stop behaviour if its not making him feel good and vice versa. Any dog training starts with immediate reward for the Dog when he responds how we want.We initially need to reward immeditately so the Dog connects the reward with the behaviour.For example a simple sit,when first taught the Dog is rewarded immeditately then as the behaviour becomes fixed we can alter the reward schedule.Meaning more time can pass before the reward.Then we can go to random rewards. I would have a check on your leadership.You talk about an example of going to the door.Initially with a Pup or new Dog learning the Ropes, a short sit does the job.As it becomes clearer to the dog what we are asking of him,lengthen the Sit and vary the duration.I will maybe one day make him sit for a minute, then another day five minutes. We cannot prescribe a magical number timewise that every Dog needs inorder to instill desired behaviour as dogs are individuals and every enviroment has its own variables.What we can do though is to take note of the results we are getting. Like everything in life if we are not getting the results we want, we must change our approach till we do. Tony

Frustration and pain.If somebody steps on my foot hard,I will react too!!! Tony

Lilli,a very very good post!!!!!!! Tony

Carp,I too question the advice you have been given!!!Did anybody mention fear aggression and or poor leadership? Tony