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I have to give it to you Vickie,your pretty handy with the Camera!!!!Some great shots and looks like the dogs were having a great time!!!!Good to see. Tony

Thank you again Kelpie-I for some rationality and truth!!!!Very refreshing at the moment!!! CavnRott, you are continually misreading the contexts of People"s thread and where the person is coming from. I do not have the time or inclination to keep rehashing old ground.My Horses and dogs pick up on things much quicker than some on here. CavnRott, your twisting things to suit yourself and trying to score points or whatever has got very old very quick!!!! Please beaware I am not interested in any Childish games.Please add to the Threads with information of value but leave the Games in the School yard. Other People use this section and they wish to continue to be able to discuss things freely, so have some consideration for them. That is my final word on the matter as I have bigger fish to fry. Tony

Rusky,no disrespect intened but I do not follow your point about the numbers in a pack.Where does that have relevance to the topic? Rusky your stating positive thee is no call for positive punishment.A big point some overlook is they assume the majority of dogs out there are like there own.Somebody with a submissive type dog may generalise and feel the majority of Dogs are similiar to their own.this is due to lack of broader exposure,experience and knowledge. You might scrape through just with some very very mild dogs with the RSPCA"s approach but give them a rank dog and as erny said it would be put to sleep.This rank dog could be retrained very well using a wider and more knowledgeable application of methods.So it is fair that a Dog dies due to narrow mindedness?Hell no!!!! Rusky,is there only one way for you to drive to your Supermarket?No of course not!!!!Would you listen and believe somebody if they kept telling you there is only one way to drive there?No you would look at all options availible and pick the most applicable way!!!!! Tony

Exactly Erny!!!!You hit the nail on the head.Kelpie-I, no need to get back to the cave.Your"s was a fair call. Tony

Kelpie-I, your spot on!!!!Thats what I meant but my statement was a bit lacking.You have put it much clearer. Tony

Kelpie-I ,thank you for your post based on knowledge,real experience and the truth!!!! Tony

The way this thread has gone unfortunately tells a story about where some people are coming from. Notice to the People regularily posting in here how we all get along,have healthy discussion and can openly debate matters all putting our own views across while respecting other people.Sadly it seems not everybody shares our way of healthy discussion. I am sick of this "It has to be about me " mentality whenever anything is posted!!!To those who see everything as being about them, go away and grow up!!!!! I ask to those who immaturely took it as about them,did I specifically name you?No of course not, so again grow up Why do People take things as it has to be about them? People do so in some cases because,they know they are carrying out practises a post may describe.This of course touches upon the Truth and to some the truth is to be avoided at all times. Another reason of course is some use a post for attention seeking.Some will of course insist the post is about them as in their mind, that gives them license to throw mud,cause trouble and bring attention to themselves.Some poor characters need attention and do not care how they get it!!!!! Lastly immature emotional development within People causes the belief within that everything has to be about them!!!Its an extension of a Child before he or she forms their own Identity and they are still at the stage where they see the World and themselves as one.Hence the belief that everything is about them. Now all those who immaturely took this as being about them this is what you do.Go back to the very start of the thread and read very slowly and carefully and note that nobody was named at all!!!!!!And lastly wake up!!!!!! Tony

Anita,one problem though.Your talking in breed specific contexts.The RSPCA are including all dogs in their Blanket statement.Tony

Some have to try to turn every topic into a sh-t fight,mud slinging or point scoring exercise.Good ol Human nature and undealt with baggage. let me straighten a few of the ignorant and assuming out. Firstly I did not state anywhere that misdiagnosis only happens in rescue.Misdiagnosis can happen in many enviroments including rescue. Many people do not know the difference between a dog for example that is showing evidence of abuse or a dog that is just acting submissive.Many others apart from me have witnessed these situations. Dogmad, i really do not care how many dogs anybody has had.The number of dogs somebody has had does not automatically grant that person with a greater knowledge!!!!Having the desire and intellect to be honest with oneself and to want to learn is what brings more knowledge, not just time or numbers. Dogmad the ironic part about your question"Do I rescue?" firstly again just because a Person rescues it does not grant the Person with more knowledge!!!In rescue I have met some very knowledgeable people and at the other end some real loonies who were using Dogs as way of covering or surpressing their own baggage. Dogmad, ironically I take and have taken Dogs that no rescue would touch.,Dogs in the bush that were real rank and I mean rank!!! Ruby, I have never claimed to be an expert but I do know enough not to read things into peoples threads that are not there.Time to have a look at where your coming from yourself if you need to twist contexts to suit yourself. Tony

Shelly very very good post and a great example of why the RSPCA needs to really learn about Dogs and stop misleading the general public!!! Tony

Deelee,I would strongly second Erny"s point!!!!Its a must to have the tuition first!!!!! Tony

Exactly Erny!!!!!They are advocating food as the total answer too.I guess it might be beyond their comprehension that not all dogs are motivated or driven by Food. Tony

Ocean,if your talking in the context of whilst walking the dog,then its about leadership and control.Leadership starts well before you leave the yard. Try this for an option.I will take a dog out walking and to teach him or her the mode of operation I do this.I for a start wait till the dog wants to drift off to a tree or such.I let him and when he gets near the Tree I say OK.I do that a few times letting him drift off to say a tree, always saying OK as he gets to it.This forms an association within the Dog that it is ok to relieve when I say ok. Once he understands the above,when out walking I ask that he walk beside me.When or if he wants to drift off I correct by moving him away from the object and keep walking.Then when I wish to,I will tell the Dog OK and he knows then its alright to relieve himself.I am in control this way. Tony

Dogs will be dogs and nature is nature.I would worry about more important things. Tony

I have to agree wholeheartedly with views of Mark the dog trainer!!!!typical RSPCA, again out of touch with reality. Tony

4ng, sadly time and time again it happens on here.People jump in without knowing the facts or reality of the situation and make silly judgements.Many will even read things into a matter that are not there!!!! 4ng,ignore the negative types.I wish you all the best and your certainly going down the right track with the dog. Tony

Dogs will be dogs. Tony

Rysup,I had trouble with The Ab with the Flies.I tried different things but found limited effectiveness. I did find something that worked for my situation though.Ask a vet for a tube of Troy "Fly Repella Cream" I put a smear on the ears twice a day and that was the end of the problem. Tony

Further thoughts Reddii. Many dogs are not problem but do have problems due to the Human that is attatched to the end of the lead. So many misread Dogs So many try to make a Dog something he is not So many do not allow a dog to be a dog So many wrap a dog in cotton wool So many transpose their human issues onto the dog. Tony

Reddii,I guess your post is all about the meaning or interpretation of the context that your using the word experience in. Reddii ,correct me if I am on the wrong horse,but perhaps owner may have fit into your context better.A Handler to me is somebody I expect to have more experience than the average owner.I also expect a Handler to have experience with a range wide range of dogs. If somebody was calling themselves an experienced handler and yet were having trouble with a Pup,I would have to say they are not as experienced as they believe. Tony

Bitty,I take my Hat off you!!!!You have said it so well my Friend. Tony

I would love to come but due to my schedule cannot.I must say i will be envious of those getting to share in Erny and Steve"s vast knowledge. tony

Lablover,your not confused.I must take the blame for not writing what I meant very clearly. This is my perspective.The more drive a Dog feels ok expressing the better.The more drive a dog expresses the more complete or whole he or she feels. The more drive I can draw out of the Dog when he or she is with me,the more attracted to me he or she will be.The more drive I can asorb or take from the Dog the more responsive the dog will be. Tony

Squeak you hit on a very important point in your post.Your on the right track by saying you will observe and take it from there. I have seen some people get the hierarchy confused or mixed up and in their minds place a lower ranking dog above the higher ranked Dog.These People then treated the lower ranked dog as the highest ranking Dog.A great way to cause problems for oneself. Your pretty well there though as you say in your post,you will aslong as its acceptable let the dogs sort their status out and then manage them according to the rankings they self appointed. Tony

Squeak,you have already headed down the right track.Squeak I would progress as you have.If your concerned the two Dogs can be introduced on short leads,which you have already done anyway. You can simply for the next stage let both dogs have more lead,thus more freedom.All going well at that stage you can then let both Dogs have off lead time together on a neutral territory and observe the behaviour. Once the Dog is recovered from the op and the above stages have been carried out,then under supervision release both into your yard.Observe and note behaviour. There maybe a bit of tooing and froing whilst the dogs sort out their status.This does not mean it has to be fighting or anything drastic,as mainly it can be very subtle. Alot of potential problems Squeak can be nipped in the bud,by you showing clear leadership to these Dogs. Tony