Dog_Horse_Girl

If you feed processed foods as well, the bones will not be very effective. I've basically switched from processed to a completely raw diet with the bulk of the food being meaty bones. When Molly arrived her teeth were disgusting, and within two weeks of her arrival, eating a raw whole foods diet, her teeth and gums were healthy and spotless. So, if you're feeding kibble/canned/rolls/whatever else, then that will negate the benefits of RMBs.

The RMBs you've listed aren't really ideal for teeth cleaning. You'd be better off feeding lamb neck (whole), lamb ribs (or flap as it's also called), and beef brisket pieces. The dog needs to be gnawing and ripping flesh from bone as well as eating the bone itself. This gnawing and ripping is what scrapes the tartar and plaque off the tooth surface and what eliminates the need for expensive and sometimes risky dental cleaning under GA.

I don't know but that sounds like a lot of money. Prevention is by far the better option. Perhaps start feeding some raw meaty bones? :rolleyes:

Good news! I hope she keeps it up...fingers crossed here too.

I've just been told by Natura, the makers of EVO, that it's also available at: Pet Goods Direct Tenancy 4 274 Maroondah Highway Chirnside, Victoria, Australia Phone 03 03 9727 4933 I haven't yet contacted the supplier...they're obviously in Melbourne. If they do mail order or have a website, I'll be definitely interested in buying from them. The NB here in Australia is quite acceptable to me even with the grains. It's not a raw food either. But for Molly for one meal a day...and in emergencies with the other two, it's acceptable. EVO is ideal though.

sevendogs, we have many outbreaks of food poisoning in most parts of the world that impact badly on humans (many ppl die from food poisoning, sadly) and our dogs are less susceptible but it depends on what bacteria we are talking about. Appropriate storage and handling of raw meat is essential for good health...human or canine. I don't eat meat but I do source my dogs' food from human grade suppliers. I would no sooner give my dogs "fresh road kill" than eat it myself. But each to their own. We don't have many deer in Australia as they're an introduced (and farmed) species. But I still wouldn't offer my dogs a carcass I found by the roadside.

There is another thread about this topic, but suffice to say, pls don't use poison if you plan on obtaining another living creature as most dogs and cats will happily feast on dead and decaying rodents, with disastrous consequences. Either use the quick-kill traps (old fashioned ones that break the rodent's neck) or the traps that don't kill but then you have to move the rodents somewhere else. And yes, no matter how careful you are with not leaving your food around, there are always mice capable of getting into your cupboards by eating through the timber. We had a very old house in Melbourne and the mice used to eat through the timber cupboards to get inside the kitchen so they could live in our disused chimney (the fireplace had a gas heater built in). If you've seen two mice, I guarantee you've got a big family of at least 12 mice...they breed like, well, mice!

MM I also feed a raw diet, except that Molly must have breakfast and she's a very slow eater. I don't have unlimited time in the mornings...hence the need for a kibble for her. She has no trouble eating kibble relatively quickly but I would prefer a raw kibble, hence the EVO. But I refuse to support PP and I find Natura's attitude arrogant, to say the least. Natural Balance is a product that does contain grains, but I like the company's ethos...no animal testing in laboratories, they use only organic produce, etc. So it's a compromise but for me, a happy compromise. Natura, you're losing Australian customers. I guess you don't care though.

IR I would be careful about where I purchase my meat products if your dog got sick from your last source. I've fed my dogs on raw meaty bones for years, but have been a total raw feeder for the past three years...so perhaps you were just unlucky? I've had one questionable chicken purchase in that whole time (and it was labelled "pet food only") but no problems whatsoever with any human grade foods that I've fed the dogs. I'm sorry that you had a bad experience. But if this were me, I'd try another supplier, and be sure you handle and store raw meat appropriately.

I'm so sorry. Run free, Hapi, run free! I too followed this pair from the start...I'm in shock at his loss. Give Asha some extra hugs from me. :D

If PP thinks that they can monopolise the market then they might have underestimated the numbers of ppl who are against the sale of animals in pet shops. After all, if we have dogs/cats/other pets, we have to buy our supplies *somewhere*. And if we object to buying from shops that sell live animals, then guess what? There ARE shops that sell pet supplies but not pets. And we'll simply spend our money there! I've just been given a sample (FREE!) of Natural Balance and gave Molly some for breakfast, mixed with the EVO. So far, so good. If she tolerates it over the next few days, then I'll buy that product instead of the EVO. The other bonus - the Natural Balance is a little less expensive! And the Pet Barn staff are wonderful, caring, awesome ppl! So it's a real pleasure to shop there. As I said in a previous post, I hope someone from Natura is following this thread. And I hope that the Bates' are too! :D

If she doesn't like plain yoghurt, please try her with a fruit one until you find one she likes. My pack go *crazy* for yoghurt and the flavoured ones are a real treat! Their all-time favourite is mixed berry (fruits of the forest, or berry heaven)...they adore these b/c there is real fruit pieces (big chunks too!) throughout the yoghurt. Plain yoghurt doesn't cut it for some dogs.

You could also try full-fat plain or flavoured yoghurt mixed in with raw foods such as meaty bones (you can also smash up the bones a bit...). Every dog I've ever offered yoghurt to has taken it without hesitation! You can also freeze some into a Kong toy, just stopper the small end with peanut butter, put the kong upside down into a glass or jar, fill with yoghurt then stopper the big end with PB and freeze. Dogs love it, esp in this weather! I would definitely stop the chicken wings but consider continuing with other chicken parts. Also lamb is an excellent choice for fussy eaters, try lamb neck chops or diced lamb (casserole or stir fry). Satin balls are great if you have the time and inclination to make them.

Sad to report, but according to PP, they have "exclusive distribution rights" to the Innova product range in Australia. I'm switching to another product, one that is available in ethical pet shops. Shame on Natura, shame. ;) IF this company decides to allow an ethical retailer to distribute its products, I'll reconsider. In the meantime, they've just lost a customer. I hope Natura is reading this thread. It needs to know how we in Australia feel about the PP chain.

For some reason, the "helpful" ppl at Innova forwarded my e-mail to PP...so I got a response from PP. I've replied. Guess I'll be trialling Natural Balance, bought from Petbarn, eh? Or I could go for a lesser quality product such as Nutrience. Whatever, I won't be buying EVO again unless they find a new distributor. Nice one, Natura.

Punishment is not correction. I'm not sure how else to explain what I'm talking about other than the examples I've provided in the thread. Punishment is, for example, hitting a dog b/c it does something you don't want it to do. Correction is a simple "No" and redirecting the dog to the appropriate activity or task. Geez, I don't really know what else to say. Punishment is something that you don't aspire to, whereas correction is. Is that any more helpful?

The idea is for the dog to see the chicken itself as aversive. It may work but it also may not. Think about how you feel when you have just eaten the biggest meal of your life and someone holds a fresh apple pie/ roast chicken/whatever under you nose. Suddenly what was previously appetetive to you is now aversive. This is a basic example, obviously there are all kinds of rights, worngs and posibilities to discuss about why it may or may not work, but I'd be writing a novel and I just don't have the time or the inclination. Suffice it to say it is not something I would recommend for a number of reasons. Are you saying that you have never said 'NO' to your dog when he/she was doing something wrong, never witheld a food treat or ignored an undesirable behaviour? All are methods of punishment. Sorry but I do not agree that saying the word "No" is punishment. Hitting a dog is punishment, as is tying a chicken carcass around a dog's neck. Saying "No" to a dog is a correction, IMO. There is a difference although it *might* be considered subtle by some.

I feed roo tail as part of my raw, whole foods philosophy. No issues except ONCE when travelling. Dreadful tummy upsets the next day after the dogs had roo tail from a local (country) butcher. But it's given probably once a fortnight...they *love* their roo tail pieces! BTW - I usually get it at Petbarn. :p

My dear Aussie Boy, It's four years today since you crossed the Rainbow Bridge. We had over thirteen years together but it still wasn't enough time. I miss your broad smile, your goofy nature, and your always wagging tail. I know you're there waiting patiently for us. I know you're young again, and playing with all the other doggies until their special humans come along. I understand that you had to leave us, but it still hurts that you're not here with me. You might think we've also moved on, because there are some new doggies with us now. And in some ways, perhaps we have moved on. But we will never forget our Aussie Boy. You can never be replaced, nor would we want to. I miss your "happy yelp" but a part of you lives on in Lilly - she also has a "happy yelp" that is reserved for truly special occasions. Remember that you are always in our hearts. You are truly missed, still loved, and remembered every day. I love you boy!

I've just e-mailed them too! And pointed out that other quality foods are available in ethical pet shops here and that I *might* be tempted to change, which is true. Anything to avoid giving profits to PP. :p The local Petbarn has Dick Van Patten's food and it's quite good. So that is a distinct possibility for Molly's breakfast...

At least when I have to go to PP, I always "talk" to the customers considering buying a pup from the shop. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't. I haven't been kicked out...yet. I do believe that sometimes, saying something helps. But sadly, in the majority of cases, these pup sales are due to impulse buying (exactly what the store is aiming for), and when someone walks by the window and "falls in love", it's very difficult to change their mind. ;) EVO is the only product I buy at PP, and their prices for EVERYTHING are way higher than everywhere else. I'm still hoping that an ethical pet shop, that is, one that doesn't sell live animals, will consider carrying EVO b/c it's a GREAT product. Anyone?

I avoid supermarket brands of anything to do with dog care, but that's my bias. In answer to the question, I use Interceptor Spectrum and Frontline Plus. Interceptor covers: heartworm, all intestinal worms including tapeworms. FLP covers fleas, ticks and paralysis ticks. Both products are available at vets and some pet supplies shops, and online. I would aim for something that your vet carries. It's probably a good idea to have your dog checked for intestinal worms if you think the wormer isn't effective. Such a check shouldn't be very expensive. IMO the brand you mentioned has been superceded many times over by much more effective products. :p

Punishment is something like what the OP did: tying a dead chicken around the dog's neck, I suppose the inference is that the dog won't touch a chicken again b/c of the poor dead creature strung around its neck? I'm shrugging my shoulders at the "logic" of this solution. Adverse consequence: putting water-filled balloons on the chicken pen to stop the dog from getting on the pen itself. The real solutions here are: 1. Remove the dog from the chickens. That's obvious! If the dog can't get to the chickens, there is no problem. 2. Train the dog to recall reliably even with distractions (such as flying/running chickens). This is more difficult than one imagines! IMO punishment doesn't help build a good relationship between dog and human. It just makes the dog mistrust the human that instigates the punishment. Whereas adverse consequences do not connect the human to the consequence! BTW - I could never punish a dog. It's just not OK IMO. Correction, if used, should be immediate, verbal and reinforced with other means of reward such as a clicker or a food treat...these methods work well in most cases. :p

That's great...but actually give people options, tell of your experiances...but don't push the 'product' as if it's the only good/decent thing to feed your dog. It would be like me pushing RC as the only way to go since it's what one of my dogs does well on :p I promo a dry food as a part time job (trust me, it's for the enjoyment of meeting/helping people rather then the money lol), but i don't just push push push my product, i'll offer my help on any of the foods. However i do try and steer people towards the Super Premium kibbles as i think they are the way to go if feeding dry food. However i also include info on BARF - eg - "The super premium foods or barf are the better options available for your dog" etc etc. If they ask for more info on BARF i give them a quick rundown and advise them to google it I give people the option...i don't just say "buy this particular brand, otherwise you aren't doing right by your dog" And the best you can do for your dog...is feed them what they do well on whether that be Barf, kibble or ham and cheese sandwiches :p As to recreational bones, they to me mean those huge cow legs bones etc...i very rarely use them as i could toooo easily imagine my dogs snapping a tooth on them. The bones my dogs got/get are turkey (bums, wings, legs, necks), chicken (necks, wings, legs, maryland, whole, and frames), lamb (necks, flaps, offcuts), beef (soup bones, necks, ribs), pork (hocks, ribs, trotters, offcuts) etc etc. In fact tonight the boys dinner is a large pork hock each as i managed to get six of them at a pretty good price Showdog - and i so like that little cheer smilie :p KK, I don't give recreational bones any longer, b/c my dogs have no need for them. I *used to think* that giving processed foods (both canned and kibble) plus the weekly bone, was the best thing anyone could feed their dog. I have learnt a lot since then. I don't simply "push" feeding raw, whole foods. But I do discuss processed and whole raw foods, particularly Innova EVO. Failing that, I urge others to consider any of the very expensive and very fine American imports(that genuinely are considered "super premium") such as California Natural, Eaglepack Holistic, and Innova's range, as all are quality processed foods. I have absolutely no professional interest in processed or other dog foods. That is, I don't make money from "selling" one or another...I merely like to give ppl information b/c I didn't have such information until 3 yrs ago and I wish I'd known years earlier, b/c then I could have stopped supporting companies that test all kinds of things on (usually homeless, unwanted) animals much sooner. I am enthusiastic about fresh, whole raw foods. Apart from the fantastic results my own dogs continue to have, I really can't stand multinationals like Colgate Palmolive for example, (that tests cosmetics and other products for humans using animals including cats and dogs) making huge amounts of money from ppl that feed their dogs and cats on products owned by CP. And CP is not alone in this. Many processed pet food manufacturers also conduct tests on animals and that is immoral and unnecessary today. Yet they continue to do so b/c they *can*, b/c the public is generally quite ignorant of what goes on, or perhaps they simply don't WANT to know b/c it's so distressing. And before anyone "accuses" me, I am not a member of any animal welfare organisation, nor do I support many of these org's tactics or ideals. I've been involved in researching animal welfare issues for more than half my life (I'm 40 now), and I use as much independent material as I can get my hands on (difficult b/c most of this abuse happens behind tightly locked doors for obvious reasons). So that's my bias. That's why I don't "push" processed foods, except the select few from manufacturers that behave ethically and treat animals with care, dignity and respect (as they deserve). If anyone here genuinely believes that this type of testing is acceptable or perhaps harmless, I'd have to ask: are you willing to allow such companies to test on *your* dog or cat? Sorry if this seems O/T, but it's not. Find out exactly which multinational owns the brand of dog food you buy. Find out what else they manufacture. Find out how they test products or ingredients. And decide what is right for you, and more importantly, for the lab animals they "employ" in order to conduct their dirty tests.

Yes, K9, my thoughts exactly. I cannot ever condone punishing a dog - providing undesirable consequences, yes, punishment, no. It's just not fair on the dog and leads to a poor dog-human relationship. I'm sure the OP has learnt from this mistake and will endeavour to learn how to better communicate with the dog. BTW - when we talk about "dog training", IMO most of the training is directed at the human (learning how to communicate and work with the dog) rather than at the dog. That's of course, JMHO.