Herr Rottweiler

Erny yes you addressed it well. So did Kelpie and Poodle with some great example there. The definition of Anthropomorphism is, seeing animals or the world itself as having human characteristics, particularly as having feelings and motives like those of human beings. I loath hearing people tell me, "My dog did [something] to get back at me because I left him alone for 8 hours. Especially people who should know better. The worst case scenario of this is when people come home, call the dog to them then belt into the dog for taking clothes of the line and have the nerve to tell you that the dog understands why it recieved the belting. Not only is this classic Anthropomorphism but there are so many crimes committed to the poor old dog that he has no idea what is happening. Being belted or punished for obeying a recall is sickening! Now for my positive training mates, (not all of them ) who encourage people to believe that their dogs think on a higher level than what they are capable of doing leads to more problems because now we have a dog spiriling out of control not knowing who's supposed to be in charge. This is the pandora's box of dog training. Even when I see in people's posts, "I'm owned by a [insert breed]" it makes me cringe. Most times I know it's a tongue in cheek statement but for some of the guys I can see why they would have trouble telling me what colour an Orange is. I always know when someone is going to be ontop of a problem with their dog and I determine that by the way they treat the dog. When they treat a dog like a dog and respect the way dogs think, then the battle is 70% over. Just for the record, I do talk to my dogs BUT i'm under no illusion that it will ever get me anywhere, it's of no benefit to dogs and I don't expect a human response or action. So it creates no harm and it's bond building the way i do it.

Yes Erny, you have heard me dub them, "The Sunday School Dogs" before as that's the only time they get any regular training.

:D

No I don't think you're biased and please don't be put off from having your point of view. It's as valid as everyone elses

This is not flaming neither is it threatning, it's more based on education. Would it be ok if I belted you in the head with a cricket bat for not agreeing with what I think is right? The obvious answer is, most definately not! So hopefully that should answer your question. See this is the interesting side of the argument, what do we consider to be cruel? I have a few things I consider cruel. Starvation, Isolation, Stupidity Anthropomorphism I had a private lesson with a young lady about 6 years ago and she was mortified with her dog and her prior trainer because she believes it was the trainers fault why her dog killed and ate the cat. I asked her why she came to that conclusion and she explained to me that her trainer only believed in positive measures and if her dog didn't behave then she should with hold the dogs food. She couldn't get the dog to stop so she didn't feed it for 1 week so it ate the cat. Obviously, a gross misinterpritation on a silly persons behalf but none the less, another person not understanding how to use what they have been given. Mind you, I managed to fix the behaviour in 1 lesson with some sensibly applied positive punishment, convinced her to keep the dog and not do silly things like that again. Amen

I agree, concentrate on one dog at a time and be careful that it's not over done with the young puppy. On the lighter side, it's great to know that you have such good committement to your dogs

That's right Leopuppy, it's fine to not like something or not want to use something once you fully understand everything in the right context. What I find arrogant and somewhat disturbing is when individuals or organisations want something banned because they don't like it, therefore believe that it shouldn't be available at all. I applaude people's right to chose what they want to use. The same liberties and courtesies are not returned. There is nothing more stimulating than sitting with open minded people and discussing techniques, methods, ideas etc. On the other side, there is nothing more offensive than talking to people who have no idea why, it's just that way to them because it is or someone told them This is based on an actual experiment done in the Uk. It was sent to me in an email and it best describes the actions of many of the dog training community that I have met They put eight monkeys in a room. In the middle of the room is a ladder, leading to a bunch of bananas hanging from a hook on the ceiling. Each time a monkey tries to climb the ladder, all the monkeys are sprayed with ice water, which makes them miserable. Soon enough, whenever a monkey attempts to climb the ladder, all of the other monkeys, not wanting to be sprayed, set upon him and beat him up. Soon, none of the eight monkeys ever attempts to climb the ladder. One of the original monkeys is then removed, and a new monkey is put in the room. Seeing the bananas and the ladder, he wonders why none of the other monkeys are doing the obvious. But undaunted, he immediately begins to climb the ladder. The water is no longer being sprayed by this time but all the other monkeys fall upon him and beat him silly. He has no idea why. However, he no longer attempts to climb the ladder. A second original monkey is removed and replaced. The newcomer again attempts to climb the ladder, but all the other monkeys hammer the crap out of him. This includes the previous new monkey, who, grateful that he's not on the receiving end this time, participates in the beating because all the other monkeys are doing it. However, he has no idea why he's attacking the new monkey. One by one, all the original monkeys are replaced. Eight new monkeys are now in the room. None of them have ever been sprayed by ice water. None of them attempt to climb the ladder. All of them will enthusiastically beat up any new monkey who tries, without having any idea why.

Yes Rom, well written. The only point I would add to the Prong collar point is, if a human were to put it on an arm as a comparison, then having a jumper on at the time would simulate what the dog would feel. It's common knowledge that human skin has much more nerve endings due to the fact that we have sweat pores and glands close to the surface of our skin. Simply having the same retort, "We don't do this because it's cruel" is the catchcry of the ignorant. If something is cruel then there is overwhelming scientific evidence to support the claim. In the case of Prong collars, scientific evidence was never a factor when the RSPCA lead a charge to have them banned. The emotive support was good enough for them and the rest of the blind and the ignorant. These people still think the earth is flat, even though there is evidence to prove otherwise. It's like George Bush's campaign to crush the evil doers, weapons of mass destruction. Funny how they still ahven't turned up yet the occupation still lives on.

Believe me! I have plenty of days like that

Well done Jean. Sometimes a momentary setback can help to evaluate your program and establish clearer guidlines. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

Here's what I would suggest Squeak. If you're an open minded person and you want to learn the complete picture then I would recommend the NDTF course. I have completed all the courses with the NDTF and it exceeded my expectations as far as institutional knowledge. I was considering doing the Delta course as well, however I was turned off it because I personally found some of the people within Delta to frown upon people who don't agree with their methodology. It almost appeared to me to be like a dog trainers version of the freemasons. In saying this, it is only my opinion and I have friends in the industry who have completed the Delta course and enjoyed it, however they have nothing to compare it too as they know no other way. Good luck in your decision

When training your own dog, time is irrelevant. There is no such thing as time when I'm training my own dogs as I often finish when I get what I believe to be the best out of my dogs. Even in private lessons, I will stop the exercise if I feel that the dog has peaked and we will either move to a different exercise or we will spend the remainer of the time discussing stratergies for what comes next. I understand that in class scenarios we are bound by time, however I make sure all clients I deal with understnad that the result is far more important than the time.

Oh feel free to Hedds

Good thread I have a philosophy on things like this; I wouldn't get financial advice from someone unless they started from nothing, got wealthy, kept it, maintained their integrity and could successfully obtain wealth for their clients. I wouldn't take diet advice from someone unless they lost weight and managed to successfully keep it off and showed others how it could be done with the same success that they benefitted from. I know so many dog trainers around Australia and in my opinion, only a small percentage are brilliant, some are good, most are mediocre. I have met with and trained with people who have handled their own dogs to Australian Obedience Champions, yet they can't instruct people to save themselves. Getting titles means nothing! Most people can do it if they stick at it long enough or even get a sympathetic judge. I've seen that happen once to often believe me. I know trainers that have never trained one competition dog in their life and they are astounding. I would never judge a person on the ribbon and tin they have but the results that their people get and the passion they still have years after. That's truely inspiring.

Well if I did that I'm sure we would lose business

Hi Raven, Glad to hear things went well, (I was confident they would). I was organising my dog and another one for a movie that will be made for the ABC and I was doing a tracking lesson with one of the NDTF student so I appologise for not catching up with you but I will try and catch you next Thursday. HR

watch the lip girls or i'll have to start smacking some bottoms

I believe that you were pulled up for a reason L&P! If you don't believe that to be the case, please re read your original post.

Hmmmm, you must be talking about Dutch

As Erny said L&P, I wont hold it against you that you chose to behave in such a way. I treat people in the same manner than I'm treated and yes, I took offense to your original post. I thought the advice that you offered Raven was destructive rather than being constructive and helpful. That's your choice not to visit one of the ADT centres, if you wanted to visit, you would be welcomed like everyone else providing you leave your crowbar at home. Best wishes with your training endevours.

Oonga is a role model member Erny. She is naturally inquisitive and love to learn about what needs to be done.

Here are some facts! 1. I would never argue maths with you, because I would feel foolish and out of my league. 2. I don't advise people on here to cave a trainers head in with a crow bar 3. I'm happy for you to have your say but I don't have to suffer a fool so go sell crazy somewhere else

Erny, you took the emoticon right out of my screen Lab & Poodle, you missed the point and in turn you have made yourself even more foolish.

Mostly women come to do training, that's a known fact. Same with show ring etc. Guys usually nick off to the footy or bathurst or whatever. The dog is generally a secondary concern to most blokes, unless it involves manly types of stuff such as schutzhund or working dog. Of the guys that come to training, which would usually work out to an 80% ratio of women vs. 20 % of men, half of those guys will drop out within 6 months where 80% of the 80% of women will see it through to the end.

DAM! I knew someone would uncover my plot eventually