sandgrubber

There are lots of questions to be answered, but I disagree that it doesn't mean much. These data are much more meaningful than the normal garbage descriptions of lifespan that come with breed descriptions . . . by in large we have no idea where those numbers came from. If someone says XXX breed has a lifespan of 12 years, does it account for accidental deaths of puppy mortality? Is it collected stories from people whose dogs had long healthy lifespans? Does it exclude 2 of 10 dogs who had to be pts due to some disorder? Longevity figures mean more to me than any other health data, particularly if they are accompanied by cause of death stats. Scandanavians in general, and Finns, especially, are notable for high standards and conscientious dog ownership, and I'd guess this data is as clean as it gets. As for 'benchmarks' . . . not sure what you are proposing. Benchmarks are usually high quality data used to make comparisons of trends over time, space, or some other dimension. The UK 2004 study, if I remember, had low (~15%) response rates and there are quite a few problems with study design (eg, no responses from GSD's). If anything, I'd say the Finnish data may begin to serve as a benchmark. It's sad that data of equal quality don't seem to be showing up elsewhere. Unfortunately the English interface to the Finnish database is down (good of them to provide an English interface, though), making it hard for most of us to work with the data. The respondents in the PDE discussion say that everyone in the KC has internet access to the database and are encouraged to report on their dog(s) over time. From reading what the Finnish respondents report, a few things pop out. (1) response rates are high. To get >2000 German Shephard responses in a country where there are 145,000 members in the kennel club is impressive. (2) the low longevity numbers reflect high reporting of deaths for young dogs. I tend to discount the anecdotal 'I had a XXX(breed) who lived to be 15, and another who lived to 12' . . . because the people who had to put their puppy to sleep at three don't participate in the conversation. We tend to discount the dogs who die young.

For perspective . . . in California, any reported dog bite is followed up on nearly immediately and the dog is put into quarantine for observation for a week . . . unless the report is made more than 10 days after the incident. The motive for the law is rabies control, but rabies is very rare, so most of the dogs impounded are just biters. My county takes the law seriously. I had a malicious person report a 6 mo old Labrador pup who put a tooth into him when he was playing with her. Fortunately, he didn't report it for two weeks so they didn't impound, but they would have if he had filed within 10 days. (Maybe they wouldn't have, cause the fellow owns two adult pit bulls, and it would be hard to prove that my pup bit him and not one of his dogs.) If your dog is impounded you get fees galore. You pay for the ranger visit. You pay daily fees for the impoundment. And if you haven't registered your dog, you get to pay high penalties for non-registration. Although I didn't appreciate the attempt to use this law against me maliciously, I think it's a good system . . . it sure provides an incentive for people with mean dogs to keep them confined, and in the old days when there was more rabies around, it probably did a good job of getting rabid animals off the streets.

I guess the PDE Blog is a little taboo here, but there's recently been an excellent discussion going on the subject of longevity with many links to studies. It includes presentation of data from Finnish kennel club which haven't been published in English, and seem to be the highest quality data available since the UK study of 2004. See http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/2011/10/lifespan-long-and-short-of-it.html a couple extracts (btw, the Finns seem to report early/puppy deaths and accident deaths too, so they end out with lower average lifespan that you might expect). Ulla Ruistola said... Finnish Kennel Club collects the cause of deaths and dates also. Owners report by themselves. Koiranetti (unfortunately only in Finnish) shows that: English Bulldogs dies at the age 5 years 3 months (113 dogs) Russian Black Terrier: 4 y 6 m (62) Neapolitan Mastiff : 4 y 11 m (17) Dogue de Bordeaux: 6 y (54) Kooikerhondje: 7 y 4 m (29) Pyrenean Sheepdog: 10 y 10 m (39) Miniature Bull Terrier: 3 y 8 m (6) Shar-pei: 5 y 1 m (37) Great Dane: 6 y 4 m (306) (yellows only) Bloodhound: 7 y (50) Mastiff: 6 y 1 m (38) Shiba Inu: 5 y 4 m (13) St Bernard: 5 y 9 m (55) (short haired) Irish Wolfhound: 5 y 9 m (218) Leonburger: 7 y 1 kk (318) Finnish Lapphund: 10 y (505) Bullmastiff: 6 y 9 m (216) Bernese Mountain Dog: 6 y 11 m (491) Nova Scotia Tolling Retriever: 7 y 11 m (216) Cesky Terrier: 8 y 9 m (14) Maija Vilppo said... Like I posted earlier there are 2207 German Shepherds with cause of death in Finnish KC database. If you leave out the - 130 dogs listed as accidental deaths (averarge age of death 4yrs 3months) - 9 dogs reported missing - 1 dog killed by a predator (bear, wolf ect) - 67 dogs put down for behaviour related causes (average age of death 4yrs) - 398 dogs with no cause of death given (average age of death for those 7yrs 4 months) - 424 dogs who are reported to have died of old age (mentioned in my earlier post, average age of death 11yrs 6months.) You get 1178 German Shepherds dying of health related causes, that's more than half (53% ) of the total. The most common ones are: - Cancers and tumours (257 dogs, 8yrs 9 months) - Bone or joint diseases including athritis in hips & elbows (255 dogs, 4yrs 9months) - Back diseases including spondylosis and joint deformities (100 dogs, 7yrs) - Liver and intestinal diseases including bloat, megaesofagus and liver hypofunction (69 dogs, 6yrs 3months) - Skin and ear diseases including allergies and atopies (56 dogs, 4yrs 11months ) Also likely some of those with no cause of death listed have also died of health related reasons. Granted that is only one breed in one country but the sample size is large enough.

Santa Cruz County (California) charges $40 for spay or neuter. You must show tax returns to document that you are low income to get the subsidy. Funding comes through local government. If I remember right, barn cats (semi-feral) can be done for $20.

Longevity studies are hard to find for dogs. The most complete and credible seems to be reported in the following link: http://www.thekennel...org.uk/item/549 It is too detailed for summary . . . provides links to give you mortality and morbidity data for all breeds for which adequate data were reported. KC/BSAVA Purebred Dog Health Survey 2004 The Kennel Club/British Small Animal Veterinary Association Scientific Committee joined forces with scientists in the Epidemiology Unit at the Animal Health Trust to carry out a nationwide survey of UK purebred dogs and, with the help of owners, to identify important health conditions in UK dog breeds during 2004. The Kennel Club Charitable Trust committed substantial funds to support this project, which could only succeed with the help of owners. Questionnaires were sent to the numerically largest club of each breed, and secretaries were asked to send them out to their members. Only the largest club of each breed was selected to try and avoid duplication, and also to limit the vast number, and therefore cost, of the 70,000 forms needed. The questionnaire was divided in different sections, concentrating on different types of information. There were questions on the health of the owner's dogs, breeding, causes of death and birth defects in any puppies. Breed clubs have received detailed feedback on the results of this survey where breed response rate was at least 15%, which should greatly assist with the recognition and control of important conditions in specific breeds. Data gathered from this survey will provide baseline information against which the success of future control schemes can be measured.

So well said Alyosha. Well said, but not correct as a matter of law. Having rights does not pass responsibilities back. A 2 yr old child has lots of rights, but no responsibilities. Some argue that the unborn have rights. A dying person or someone with serious brain injury has rights, but is incapable of taking responsibilities, and therefore not be held responsible by the law. Human owners have responsibility because they vest in animals rights to some minimal standard of care. Animals have rights because people recognise a responsibility to meet certain standards of care.

I am not attacking cocker spaniels, so there is no need to defend. However, it is incorrect to say that temperament is 99% training. If breeders are not willing to admit that bad temperament flaws can run in lines and stop breeding from dogs with bad temperament, breeds will deteriorate. I'm thinking of a reasonably popular stud dog, I won't mention the breed, but not a cocker, whose second, off-the-books call name was A##-hole, and who was known to throw stubborn and troublesome pups. In my book, that dog should have been neutered faster than a dog with 3/3 elbows.

Old age was 'old age' as reported by owners, so it could mean lots of things.

Do inquire about temperament (for any breed). http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/05/22/cocker-spaniel-aggressive.html World's Meanest Dog: The English Cocker Spaniel? May 22, 2009 -- A floppy-eared, innocent-looking breed may be one of the world's most aggressive dogs, according to a new study that found English cocker spaniels tend to be more hostile than other breeds. The discovery adds to the mounting evidence that aggressiveness is an inherited characteristic, suggesting that genes and breeding practices can both help determine how a dog will behave. "In our country and according to our database, the English cocker spaniel is the breed that shows more aggression problems," lead author Marta Amat told Discovery News. Amat, a researcher in the School of Veterinary Medicine at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, and her colleagues analyzed 1,040 cases of canine aggression brought to a nearby veterinary teaching hospital from 1998 to 2006. Of those cases, the majority of cases were attributed to English cocker spaniels, Rottweilers, Boxers, Yorkshire terriers and German shepherds. Probing the data further, Amat and her team discovered that English cocker spaniels were more likely than other dogs to act aggressively toward their owners as well as unfamiliar people. In contrast, dogs with reported behavior problems from other breeds tended to act aggressively toward other dogs. Among the English cocker spaniels, golden varieties and males were found to be the most hostile. The findings, published in the latest Journal of Veterinary Behavior, confirm an earlier study conducted by a separate Spanish team from the University of Cordoba, which also found males and golden English cocker spaniels were more aggressive than females or those with black and mixed-color coats. In terms of coat color, Amat explained that the coat pigment melanin shares a common biochemical pathway with dopamine and other brain chemicals involved in the control of aggressive behavior. Next »21« Previous

I've recently shifted from BARF to Castor and Pollux All Natural . . . which I doubt you can get in Australia. It includes visibly identifiable dried bananas, peas, carrots . . . and contains about 4% menhaden (a cheap, oily fish sometimes used as stock feed) and has a fishy smell . . . rice is the only grain. Has done wonders for my girls coats. Hard to tell how much they appreciate it. They'd go whacko over a bowl of diced Wonder Bread with bacon drippings poured over it.

I think there are some uncharitable, judgmental people on DOL.

Ugh! I wish everyone in this discussion could live in a place where there are more pit bulls than Staffies. Yes, there are monster pit bulls, bred and managed to be monsters. There are pit bull X's, bred to be bigger and fiercer than the monster pit bulls. The idiots who make them that way deserve some sort of extreme management . . . desexing would be a punishment to fit the crime. But the average pit bull is a wag monster much like the average Staffie. Yah, it's not uncommon for either breed to be a bit DA, usually cause they haven't been socialised from an early age. I sympathise with staffy owners. I wouldn't want that sort of hate and fear spilling over onto my dog, either. But it's a mistake to give in to the notion that the fear and hate is justified. I also think the editorial misreads the AVA. The AVA says the legislation IS NOT A SOLUTION FULL STOP. . . and does not concede that it is even a temporary solution.

A cousin of mine had a dog lead that stated: MY MOMMY IS SINGLE. I kinda prefer that approach. Holding a cold synthetic hand is creepy.

see http://www.canine-ge...m/lifespan.html for full details This guy conducted a web based survey of standard poodle owners. His findings showed some interesting things: * cancer and bloat account for about three quarters of all deaths * average lifespan is a bit over 11 years * more inbred dogs are much more likely to suffer bloat * only 9.1% of dogs die of old age I find this interesting. Not sure if I believe the data though. The author (now deceased) was active in the Canine Diversity Project, which clearly affected the questions asked, but I'm not clear if it affected study results. I sure would like to see the equivalent for other breeds. Comments, anyone?

Couldn't find the letter. The link put me to a debate about energy sources.

I don't know a lot about cockers, but am aware there have been serious temperament problems in some lines. At least this answer will give you a bump, and you might get a reply from someone with more info.

I've seen this study mentioned many times. Thought it useful to post links for the original study. I think the underlined text below will give a link to the .pdf. It's an amazing study, both because the results are conclusive and because they observed their dogs for a full 15 years! https://www.avma.org/News/Journals/Collections/Documents/javma_220_9_1315.pdf Effects of diet restriction on life span and age-related changes in dogs Richard D. Kealy, PhD; Dennis F. Lawler, DVM; Joan M. Ballam, MS; Sandra L. Mantz; Darryl N. Biery, DVM, DACVR; Elizabeth H. Greeley, PhD; George Lust, PhD; Mariangela Segre, DSc; Gail K. Smith, DVM, PhD, DACVS; Howard D. Stowe, DVM, PhD Objective—To evaluate the effects of 25% diet restriction on life span of dogs and on markers of aging. Design—Paired feeding study. Animals—48 Labrador Retrievers. Procedures—Dogs were paired, and 1 dog in each pair was fed 25% less food than its pair-mate from 8 weeks of age until death. Serum biochemical analy- ses were performed, body condition was scored, and body composition was measured annually until 12 years of age. Age at onset of chronic disease and median (age when 50% of the dogs were deceased) and maximum (age when 90% of the dogs were deceased) life spans were evaluated. Results—Compared with control dogs, food-restrict- ed dogs weighed less and had lower body fat content and lower serum triglycerides, triiodothyronine, insulin, and glucose concentrations. Median life span was significantly longer for dogs in which food was restricted. The onset of clinical signs of chronic dis- ease generally was delayed for food-restricted dogs. Conclusions and Clinical Relevance—Results sug- gest that 25% restriction in food intake increased median life span and delayed the onset of signs of chronic disease in these dogs. (J Am Vet Med Assoc 2002;220:1315–1320)

This appeared at the top of my screen . . . below the DOGZONLINE caption and above the forum itself. What an abomination. Pugs have health problems enough without someone trying to create teacups! Teacup Pugs For Sale Search multiple engines for teacup pugs for sale www.web crawler.com

yip - nothing to do with the new laws (although she is happy to paint it that way...). ok, bad example. Lesson to learn. Those who beat their breasts may not be the people who have suffered the most. It's going to require some sort of outreach to get those who suffer in silence for the loss of a loved animal to come on board. Or do you mean to say that it's all a myth and no one is loosing their pets? I'm surprised at how quiet the waves seem to have gotten after the deadline passed.

I was reading comments on the Melbourne Rally Facebook page and was saddened to see the following comment: Caren Halliwell I'm bringing the empty collar and lead Boyd left. This made me want to cry. Seems like there are people out there loosing their dogs. Not all of them will be willing or able to participate in rallies. Seems like it would be worth setting up a memorial website somewhere to pay tribute to the dogs lost. Perhaps a simple black page with the dogs names, pictures, and comments written in white set up as a Wiki so people can add to it. I checked. emptycollar.com, emptycollar.net, emptycollar.org and all the other variants are available.

it's ok to rip out a car's radiator or a computer's hard drive, but not ok to pull out something from a dog's guts. I've met people who take on a second job to pay their vet bills. You don't do that for a mere possession. As Steve pointed out, 'rights' is not all or nothing. You have to be a loonie to want full freedom for dogs. Freedom of speech, freedom of movement, freedom to choose a mate and raise a family . . . those are not meaningful rights for dogs. But most people would agree that they have a right not to be treated with extreme cruelty and that owning a dog involves a duty of care. Saying dogs are more than chattels one is not signing on with the animal lib agenda. I think the very special place dogs have in many of our lives should give them a status higher than that of a possession. The Law should give some standing to the affection people feel for the animals that share and enrich their lives.

Now, if I were a house burglar, there are a number of breeds I'd be wary of. In my book, that's good (so long as the same dogs don't bail me up in the park or attack my dog in a dog park).

Thanks for the links, dogcentric. Interesting stuff. I guess this all will be slow and difficult to resolve. Personally, I don't see how an animal that someone loves as a family member can be reduced to 'property' status. It sickens me that the people who are supposedly working for animal rights don't stand up for condemned animals. Maybe that's just me. You might be interested in a book called "Pawprints of History" by Stanley Cohen (2002). http://www.amazon.com/Pawprints-History-Course-Human-Events/dp/0743222318/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1317845913&sr=1-1 particularly Chapter 11, which deals with the founding of the RSPCA. The original advocate, Richard Martin, started his activities with a duel with a local landlord who shot a friend's dog and managed to get legislation through Parliament in 1822. It goes on to describe the mayhem the ensued when the RSPCA managed to pass laws outlawing cart dogs.

I disagree. Anti-cruelty legislation, dating back to the 19th century, has established the concept that animals, particularly dogs, should have certain minimal standards of care, and should not be worked to death (as sometimes happened with spit dogs and cart dogs, horses, donkeys, etc.). The first child welfare laws in the USA were based on anti-cruelty legislation put in to protect work animals. When people take on an animal as a companion, that animal deserves a certain minimal standard of care. Yes, there will be disputes about what that minimum of care is, and it will vary over time and from place to place. What I don't understand is how the Loonies fail to be interested in the execution of dogs because they look wrong. I can't think of a worse violation of rights than mass execution based on suppositions with no scientific basis. As for the vet care question . . . I may not agree with where the lines are drawn: ear and tail docking and removal of dew claws are things that breeders have done for centuries, and there's no question that these things can be done in a humane fashion. I'm not convinced that a bullet is any less humane than the green dream. But I do agree to there being laws. DIY Ceasars and debarking are a step too far (I don't know about Australian kenneling laws . . . but these are practices that have recently been outlawed in some US states after finding them widespread in huge, highly commercial breeding operations).<br /><br />p.s. If anyone can explain what's going on with my posts . . . adding a bunch of /br's and &gt's etc., please help. I have posted in the appropriate forum for this, but I don't think I've gotten a response yet. I removed a lot of junk from this post, but it was a real mess before I did so. I've re-edited it . . . maybe the junk will find its way back in.

Surely, the government has ways to force the trailer company to pay. . . garnish something? take away business licenses?