sandgrubber

If she's lactose intolerant, milk will give her the runs. I think -- but may be wrong -- that pups feed cow's milk from early on tend not to develop lactose tolerance. I try to keep my dogs lactose intolerant -- and give them a good dose of milk when things aren't moving down below.

Great thread. I haven't seen any discussion of the effect on growth patterns for a young dog. Thought it might be worth noting that I asked our local leading repro vet (Steve Metcalf at Applecross) about possibly using it on one of my boys to simplify running the boy with the girls. He advised against it . . . at least for a Labbie. He said cutting down testosterone would affect bone growth, probably resulting in a taller, lankier dog. In his opinion the best use of the implant was for full grown dogs who could stand a bit of toning down of testosterone-driven behaviours. He didn't seem willing to guarantee that a dog would be able to return to stud duty when the drug has worn off . . . though he didn't rule it out.

I doubt she had KC before . . . no one else had it . . . but could be. As I understand it there is no treatment for the viral component of the KC-complex, but antibiotics can knock back secondary bacterial infections, which can make KC nasty. My vet says the stronger (than Amox) antibiotics are mostly dangerous for puppys. Apparently they affect the enamel of the adult teeth (Vibravet = doxicycline being the one recommended for respiratory problems). Benedryl seems to soothe the throat and make the pup drowsy, hence reducing the chronic aspect of the cough. Fingers crossed she pulls out of it soon.

Is she sneezing and sneezing and sneezing and sneezing? Or does she just sneeze once in awhile? If it's non-stop, I'd take her to a good vet. Something may be lodged in her nasal passage. It's very hard to see this in most cases cause the pup won't stand still and the visibility is poor. Especially, if you think the sneezing is affecting her appetite, I'd go to the vet. If it's once in awhile, I'd suspect something in the environment bothers her nose. I'd try to observe when and where she has the problem and see if I could work out what was bothering her.

Pumpkin, at 12 weeks, had a C4 plus a nasal "injection" for kennel cough. I run a boarding kennel, and belong to an association whose code of ethics requires kennel cough vaccinations.. . . hence deleting the bordatella was not an option. Shortly after the injection Pumpkin developed a cough very much like kennel cough. Another pup was injected at the same time and is not coughing. The cough has persisted for about 10 days and is borderline serious (lots of coughing, horrid sounding chest, sleeping a lot), though she is not feverish and still bright (when she's not crashed). Question: I know there's been a lot of discussion of adverse effects of C5, but what I've read doesn't seem to include Pumpkin's symptoms. Have others had problems with pups apparently getting kennel cough from the nasal vaccination? (It's possible that the cough has nothing to do with the vaccination). Question 2: My vet says baby pups can't have Vibravet and has Pumpkin on Clavulox (sp?). Using Benedryl for relief of coughing. Can anyone suggest better meds for a baby puppy with a bad cough.

I second the idea of taking the dog to a vet . . . but you should be warned, some seizures aren't easy to diagnose. Don't expect miracles from your vet. Hope it only happens once and you'll never need to find out what it was (I had a dog that had one massive seizure at about four years of age and never seized again -- fortunately, I had a vet who said 'let's not run all the tests now. Lets just wait and see if it happens again). If it reoccurs they'll have a better chance of diagnosing and treating.

My (very experienced) vet says that the canine digestive system is able to handle most kinds of 'off'. There is, however, one important exception. Puppies younger than four months have not fully developed their immune systems and Salmonella can make them very sick, if not kill them. The basis for this statement wasn't published literature, but rather, experience treating sick pups. I find that dogs in the boarding kennel occasionally get the runs from digging up and eating a chicken carcass that someone else has buried and I haven't found, but I have never had one get seriously sick. My Labbies never let anything go off in their own yard . . . but eating things -- Gawd only knows what but they often reek -- they find in the bush doesn't seem to do them any harm.

I apologise for using the word 'flimsy'. However, I think we're all better off admitting that the best available evidence on diet is often weak. Having accepted this, we should be able to operate knowing that we're all operating on 'best guess' reasoning . . . and anyone riding a high horse can be seen as someone making a fool of themselves. I personally tend to BARF diet, but not because Billinghurst's scientific evidence is compelling . . . simply because it has 'face validity' . . . ie, it sits well with how I think about the world. That said . . . I think there is some objective data on one aspect of bone growth. Would take awhile to dig it up, but I am reasonably certain that there are independent vet school studies showing that calcium supplementation is bad -- it wasn't the petfood companies that made it unfashionable to pour Sandoz syrup over the puppy chow.

Not to be a pain in the arse, but those articles can hardly be said to come from an independent source, and -- apart from general knowledge statements about the balance of amino acids and a few tangential points -- the sources they site are mostly from pet food companies and one unpublished PhD dissertation. What is required is a report on systematic trials with good statistical control, conducted by a party with no vested interest in the outcome, and peer reviewed to (hopefully) catch any serious flaws. I am not saying that "b-naturals" are dishonest. But the quality of the scientific evidence presented is as flimsy as that used by cigarette companies to 'prove' that smoking is good for you.

I'll bet this is one of those many things where there's no good answer . I feed all pups the same. Some of 'em grow rapidly. Some of 'em grow slow. Some of the rapid growers have ended out with bad hip and elbow scores. Other rapid growers score out well. I suspect genetics has been more important than diet, but perhaps the genetics could have been expressed differently if the diet was tweeked. I doubt you could run a scientific test that began to assess the question for less than a few hundred thousand dollars . . . and it would still leave lots of questions unanswered.

I don't think diabetes can be effectively managed without veterinary monitoring. If they won't change vets, is there any chance of feeding information to the vet? I don't want to dramatise the situation, but I suspect this dog's life is in danger.

If he's diabetic and on insulin and the vet can't figure it out, I'd suggest trying another vet. May be that the dosage is wrong? Or something is going on in the metabolism. I regularly look after a 10 yr old diabetic labbie bitch who could stand to loose 20 kg. She gobbles anything and everything like a normal lab. Gets an insulin shot before each meal. I know they had a rough time with her when the diabetes treatment started -- she lost an eye.

I don't think Lepto is included in a C5. It is included in C7 (maybe C6, not sure) but Lepto is only found in the far northern parts of Australia I believe. My dogs are now on a 3yr booster regime and as persuasive as the vets can be about giving a C5, mine will get a C3 in the future. My vet -- who advises me in reading the certificates that come into the boarding kennel -- tells me that the Australian system has no checks on consistency . . . ie, all C5's don't include the same vaccines. My mind blurred beyond this . . . but bottom line is that it's complicated. But -- yes -- there is now a C3 vaccination that is ok'd for once every third year. My veterinary advice is this is the preferred option . . . and use the adjunct vaccine for kennel cough, etc. if and when you think KC is a problem, or if you need to use a kennel that requires KC vaccination. Of course, if you use the 3 yr stuff and you don't have vet documents that indicate the vaccination is good for three years, boarding kennels will not accept it. (We all have to cover our backsides :rolleyes: ).

Thanks for the reply. Two problems caused me real difficulty before I found a good explanation for what was going on: 1. As I understand it, it has never been proven that epilepsy is hereditary, but neither has the hereditary factor been dismissed. If a nanna and granddaughter both have seizures it raises a lot of questions. Other breeders in my breed won't use an epileptic dog, and are very likely to cull an epileptic bitch. 2. Tongues wag. Even if there's no basis for worry, I don't want to be the person who is blacklisted for having bred from an epileptic bitch.

Of course it's important to treat epilepsy if that's what it is (sounds like the case in this thread is the real thing . . . this response is meant for others who may be reading). . . but it's also important not to jump to conclusions. Seizures aren't easy to diagnose. It's important to look at the full situation and be willing to think outside the box. I came close to neutering my two best bitches because they had seizures . . . only to figure out that the problem isn't hereditary. They've been swimming in and drinking from a fishpond that grows blue green algae (ie, cyanobacteria) and are getting occasional doses of a nerve poison. I'm very grateful to the vet who told me to observe and think before running a lot of tests, which she said were likely to yield no clear answers. But . . . these guys symptoms were not typical of epilepsy and didn't happen but a few times a year . . . commonly with two of them fitting in the same day or a few days apart.

The other problem with minced meat (other than poultry) is that you're likely to be buying bone free meat . . . hence not getting calcium. I can buy a new commercial meat grinder for less than a thousand dollars. The equivalent machine that will take on bone will cost me well over $10,000, even second hand . . . and it will be a nasty brute that I would be scared to use.

I'm not suggesting that you skip vet diagnosis / treatment or alternative therapy. But swimming does marvels for a lot of muscular/skeletal problems. I have worried about minor limps in several pups and they've all rayed out fine. In the most recent case I went to the vet and he said, "can't find anything. Wait till she's a year old and do the Xrays"; meanwhile swim her or exercise her on soft sand. She rayed out fine. But I've had to discard a few pups from breeding because their hip/elbow scores weren't up to it.

As others have said, depends on the dog and the park and the time of day and the weather and . . . . If you can find some other people with similar age pups in the neighborhood, and make a habit of showing up at a certain time, an off lead park can be a FANTASTIC place for a pup. As a Lab breeder, I generally advise puppy buyers to seek out a good dog park . . . or even better, a beach. Most Labs are naturally social and have good doggie manners . . . ie, they play well with all but aggressive dogs. And many experienced dog owners with social dogs will go toward you when they see you have a Lab. If you can protect the pup against over-rough / aggressive dogs, social life can and should begin when the vaccinations are fully active (usually two weeks after the last required vaccination . . .but consult your vet on that). In general, I'd say, bring a lead. Keep your eyes and ears open. Use the lead if you need to. And try various parks until you find one that is ok.

There is another reason to contact the breeder. Although there are scum bag breeders out there, there are also scum bag vets . . . and a lot of well-meaning vets who didn't learn everything they needed to know in their short time in vet school. If a breeder has had experience with a particular problem they will, if approached in a calm manner, often be able to give guidance as to how to most effectively (and economically) diagnose and treat the problem.

For a healthy dog with reasonable temperament, neither sounds stressful to me. If your dog has travelled in the trailer before, and associates it with something fun, that would be my choice, especially if you yourself are driving the trailer.

How awful for you and your girl! This sort of post usually appears in the Breeder's Forum (you might want to re-post it there). The responses are overwhelmingly in support of 'check up on the breeder' and 'hold the breeder responsible for what they produce'. If you bought on Main Register and it was clear that you were looking for a dog suitable for breeding . . .particularly if you paid a premium price for 'show quality' or the equivalent . . . the breeder is culpable.

This battle has been going for a long time. Some people 'wear gloves' and others don't. If you're feeding lots of dogs, you can't use the same logic (or illogic) as people feeding one or two pets (for whom a price of $100 or so for a 15 or so kg bag seems like a good deal because the bag lasts for a few months) . . . but you can take advantage of bulk buying and -- for rescue people -- goodwill. I get chicken frames directly from the wholesale outfit that supplies filets to restaurants. Cheap and nutritious. (The local dogfood manufacturers are buying from the same source). I also pick up a few cartons for local rescue people and sell the frames on at cost. If you can pick up some sort unprocessed industrial waste from the meat industry before so company adds a lot of cost and decreases the nutritional value (by heating, drying, grinding, etc. and diluting with grain/soy/what have you). you will probably be doing a favour to your dogs.

I disagree, no offence to your breeder/vet, but I am yet to meet a vet who knows anything more than the basics of dog nutrition, I'm sure they exist, but they certainly aren't the norm. You cannot possibly compare the GI tract of a canine with that of a human, there is no similarity at all. The teeth, the saliva, the time food remains in the stomach, the strength of the stomach acids and the actual length of the intestines are all totally different, a dog has a carnivore's digestive system which is designed to deal with flesh and bones. That's not to say that they cannot deal with any carbohydrate, but they do have problems processing large amounts which is why cheap dry foods that are full of fillers and have a high cereal content will produce large amounts of poo and occasionally diarrhoea in some dogs. You will also have to feed twice as much as the nutrition derived from the grain content of the food is minimal. A dog is not designed to process carbohydrate whereas we humans deal with starches very well and diets containing large amounts of fibre (roughage) are actually beneficial, in fact humans who consume minimal amounts of fibre are actually predisposing themselves to a variety of diseases including cancer of the bowel. Fur, feathers and other 'rubbish' are still parts of an animal and are not carbohydrate, I doubt that you will ever see a wild dog grazing in a wheat field or trying to raid a silo. If the OP wishes to feed a dry food as the basis of her dog's diet then I would recommend Eagle Pack Holistic or Nutro, personally I have never found an Australian product that gives the same results as either of the aforementioned products. 1. Dogs are 'designed' (I would prefer to say, 'evolved') to scavange. I didn't say they did well on carbohydrates. My dogs get fat on carbos . . . and on food with too high of fat content (how odd, so do I ). Nor did I say that a human gut would be happy with bones, fur, feathers, herbivore droppings, and other things an omnivore/scavenger canine is happy to eat. Some dogs have been bred to specifications well outside the evolved generic Canis design, and I would not assume that all breeds have the same nutritional requirements. 2. I would be grateful for any evidence from peer reviewed literature saying that a diet that reduces foecal volume is better for a dog. There was a time that human dieticians promoted digestable foods and thought roughage had no nutritional value. Now, after millions of dollars of studies of a sort that are rarely conducted on dogs they tell us to eat fibre cause it's good for the gut and the heart. I am not saying dogs should eat bran . . . although the enthusiasm with which mine go for horse manure suggest to me that undigestable plant matter may be a natural thing for them to eat. It seems plausable that some meat byproducts are very good for the dog, though not highly digestable. But, so far as I can find, the research as not been done and we cannot say whether undigestable matter is good or not good or neutral for a dog. It does mean more pooh to pick up. And more food ingested. But if the price of the 'highly digestable' is three times that of the other food, the 'savings' effect of super premium is lost. 3. I do know that vets make a bundle selling high end dogfood. . . and that vet surgeries themselves consider the cost of picking up dog pooh large in comparison to the cost of feeding dogs. I do know that price of super premium brands reflects additional middlemen and import/export + advertising. I would guess that more than half the price difference between domestic brands and super premiums is due to things that do absolutely nothing for the dog. I wish some Ozzie company would spend a few bob more per kg to make a super premium food . . . but if they did, I'll bet a lot of people would still by the imports due to image factors. 4. If you intelligently fill out a mid-range food with a high protein source and some supplements, you end out with something that is VERY similar in ingredients to a super-premium food.

I, personally, have a political/economic objection to importing dry dogfood when Australia produces so much meat and meat prices are so low here. Thus I generally settle for a mid-price range domestic dogfood and supplement with high quality chicken frames, mince, eggs, carrots, cabbage, and a fish-based multi-nutrient/trace mineral supplement. Actually, I do the reverse. I feed meat etc. and supplement with dry food. But then, I'm feeding 10 to 50 dogs, so price is a concern. My local vet (who was a breeder before she became a vet) says that the 'digestability' arguement doesn't hold water. Imagine basing your own diet on minimising the amount you deficate ;) . Roughage is part of a natural diet. Wild dogs undoubetedly eat bits of fur, feathers, and other 'rubbish' . . . which just passes through. I'd rather just get a bigger pooper scooper ;) . Because Australia is an old continent and trace mineral deficiencies are ubiquitous, I think that trace mineral supplementation is a good idea. As a scientist I object to any product being marketed as "Science" . In my book that's a joke I don't want to be the butt of ;) . Btw, if you want to read a label that looks really awful, try reading the Eukanuba Veterinary Weight Loss diet bag. If I remember correctly, First ingredient is corn. Second is sorghum. Then there's some chicken by-product.

What is dirt for if not for digging in :D ? I run a boarding kennel and find that concrete -- everywhere -- is the most successful way to stop digging. Grid mesh over specific areas will keep them from digging at that area, but they generally just go to the edge of the grid mesh and commence digging. For my own dogs, I've moved into a bunk bed. I get the [sand free] top bunk and they are free to demolish the lower bunk.