Problem In Trial Ring On The Day Only

[leopuppy04]

Just reading back over the posts and wanted to add a few things.

Firstly - Arya - is Tess stressed in new environments? I know that FOO was set up at KCC - but perhaps always having trials at new environments is an added stressor for her. But as you said - after having her out for a little bit and 'exposing' her to the environment certianly helped her. Perhaps next trial, rather than putting her in the car, try having her out in a crate or something where she can acclimatise to her surroundings? I think you said it is the traffic of dogs that concern her?

If you compare what OUR Trialing dogs are expected to do in obedience trial exercises ...to say ...the type of work/exercises of a real working dog, Herder,Assistance dog,Security,Police or Armed Forces etc, what our dogs have to do is basically NOTHING .....it's easy........and yet NOT many PASS do they? Could you imagine what would happen if a Police Dog or an Assistance dog...or a Herding dog stuffed up and didn't do what it has been trained to do?

Tapferhund - I see this as different training. Nobody has tried training this any other way??? But look at scent detection dogs - they are never corrected and are also excellent workers. I'd like to add that in the few herding practices I have had - you are never to correct your dog as it can stuff up their work ethic. I think that was what I was told..... (but I have hardly done any herdng!).

There has to be a reason for this and IMO it is because most obedience trialers do not teach their dog/s that there are consequences for not working. Many tend to teach and train their dog/s the exercises required ,but then stuff up in the proofing of them in these exercises. They might proof by training their dog/s in different areas and situations,but don't tend to add to the dogs mind ,as part of the proofing , that there ARE now consequences for NOT "doing as you were told or asked."

I still fail to understand why this cannot be the case for a positively trained dog? It is merely that YOUR consequences are different to mine. My dog completely understands their 'consequences' of their work - but it doesn't mean I have to be harsh. I apply this to any breed mind you -not just aussies. What you say is a common problem and has nothing to do with training methods. It can also swing the other way - people can spend so much time practicing in highly distracting environments (eg: stays) that the dog becomes unreliable in quiet environments.

Another part of the problem (IMO) are the Judges and the Trials (rules) as THEY won't allow for correction of a dog for misbehaviour in the ring......and dogs being as smart as they are, SOON learn what they can get away with , what they don't have to do , when in a ring situation.

Which is the exact reason why I don't correct in the practice. You practice how you train right? Ness and I (well I havent' needed to yet) will walk out of the ring if our dogs are not performing - they have then lost all chance of reward - and believe me - IT WORKS!!!! Same for Agility - some people with contact/ bar knocking issues, will walk out of a trial ring as soon as their dog knocks a bar/ breaks at the start line etc. IMHO - you have to keep in mind the trial situation and be prepared to blow a pass so that you have consistency in your training.

You should be allowed to give a light correction to the dog when it is needed so as the dog realizes it MUST work in that (trial) situation too!

May I ask how you would correct in the off-lead exercises? Keeping in mind that a verbal correction can be quite aversive to a dog that is trialling next to you? I know that in class situations, both of my dogs are particularly wary of trainers that yell out ARGH at their dogs all the time... it really puts them off. It also is not really allowing the dog to work to the level we expect in the ring.... and again - it will bring forward the next argument - if you can give a light correction - why can't we give a light praise also? I mean, in my mind - it should be at most 1 correction for every 10 praises.... after all - if you have to correct more than that, clearly your dog is not understanding the exercises.

I'm afraid I also have to disagree with this. Some of the most "shut-down", miserable looking dogs I have seen in a trial ring are purely positive trained. Correcting a dog for a behaviour it understands provides it with clear boundaries and, I believe, clear boundaries make happy dogs.

Tangwyn - this is not a reflection of the training method but rather the trainer itself. If they cannot get their timing right, ANY training method can be abused. ANY training method can be stressful. I don't deny that traditional methods work - they are incredibly effective.... but so is positive training - as with anything it is HOW you use it not WHAT the method is..... perhaps we should always stop bagging the 'other' method that we don't use and start looking at it saying that yes, all methods can work.... because if they can't - we wouldn't have so many deviations and everybody would be training the same!

[wheres my rock]

there are plenty of assistance dogs trianed usinf positve only as in no leash corrections etc

These dogs are consistent happy dogs keen to work for their handlers its not the methods we choose to use that are the problem its the person using them incorrectly that is Ive met so many so called positive trianers that think they are doing it right coz they shovel food into their dog like using correction there is so much more to be understood than that i wish it were that easy but it isnt timeing understanding of the way dogs tink and percieve things play a huge part in being successful not whether or not you correct you dog

[Arya]

Thanks for the input everyone. I really appreciate it and all the different opinions on what to do, too. Everyone has different training philosophies, don't they. If nothing else I was thinking yesterday that running into the huge number of problems I've had with my darling dog since she was a pup will in the end make me a MUCH better trainer than I ever was before, as all the dogs I've had since I was a kid were relatively easy to train and easy to work with... from the rotti cross dobe thru to the bcollie cross. Then I got Tess LOL! I bet this happens to others too.

I keep coming back to the comment K9 made to something I asked him at one stage around the start of this problem. 'Don't add pressure to pressure'. On the other hand,

---Also, if a dog is exhibiting behaviours indicating stress or shut down giving the dog praise, toys or treats can only serve to re-inforce the behaviour. It only takes once or twice and there you go - conditioned behaviour. To me, your dog must be getting some form of reward or reinforcement for the behaviour it is currently exhibiting in the ring. Perhaps this is simply the fact that initially you tried to "gee her up" with a toy or food (reward for unacceptable behaviour) and now it is perpetuated by the the lack of correction or other disincentives.

[/color]Tangwyn, you could very well have a point here. I know a very good trainer who if the dog stuffs up, she asks to be excused from the ring as she doesn't want to reinforce the behaviour and she also doesn't want to give the dog any positive feedback for the stuff up. I saw her do it with her GSD bitch at a trial a couple of weeks ago. She is highly experienced and this is her method.

I believe personally that correction does have a place, depending on what is going on with the dog. I will happily say that to shut down Tess's severe aggression towards other dogs I had to first use some pretty harsh corrections to stop her just as she began to activate, and then introduce a whole sort of plan around that to keep her working with me and build the relationship with her and leadership etc. etc. etc. and simply never tolerate aggression. This dog used to stand up on her hind legs and ROAR at other dogs. Someone else very experienced at the trial the other afternoon told me she needed a good correction too. However... I keep coming back to K9s comment about not adding pressure to pressure. I have put her back onto K9s triangle of temptation this week too, to see if it helps.

And the conundrum is... how could a dog who is ringwise or playing up go from not wanting to work in the ring and totally switching off and doing wild displacement behaviour, to five minutes later working like a champion about a hundred metres away, still in the presence of other dogs? Why would she do it? She loves to work. It doesn't make sense. When Tess is naughty she does stuff like nicking off to people she knows and acts like a kid on red cordial LOL. Maybe she is thinking too much and needs the power to do that taken out of her hands. We shall see.

BTW, LP, I was thinking that about the crate the way you do with Leo too. If I set up like you do and she is in the crate and watching everything and right there near the ring it might help. I will give this a go at the next trial as part of the strategy.

I am thinking a session with K9 could help a lot!!!

Thanks everyone

[poodlefan]

If the dog is displaying displacement behaviour due to stress (and I'm only guessing because I haven't seen the dog) then Arya I suggest that something YOU are doing IS different in the ring.

I don't believe dogs get "ring wise". I think handlers change and look to their dog to explain why the dog won't work. If the dog is not working in the ring, you've blown the trial so I'd be saying to the judge.. .I'm going to train her and TALK to her... and make it a more positive experience for the dog. I don't have a problem with corrections in the ring... no point in allowing the dog to do a crap job.

The first thing I'd suggest is that you work on some "duration training". Start with short periods of very high intensity heel work (trial standard, no talking, the best you both can do) and huge reward at the end. Then slowly build the duration of this heel work until your dog can do 10-20 minutes of good heel work without verbal encouragement.

Obedience trialing is a TEAM sport. Two members of that team have to perform. Get someone to video you training and trialing and have a very good look at your handling. I'd put money on the fact that something you are doing is signalling a difference to your dog.

[Arya]

Poodlefan, I was wondering if it was me and had a friend watch me closely when we were in the ring. She couldn't see anything I was doing at all. However, we have never worked up to twenty minutes in heeling under trial conditions to this point. The video thing in an actual trial is a good idea and I will see if I can get someone to video us. I have video of us in practice so I could compare that way. I'd LOVE it to be me!!! But even when I start to talk to her in the ring after we've blown so many points I know we've blown the heeling, she is still 'gone', staring vacantly off to the side. Will give it all a go though Thanks!

[leopuppy04]

Poodlefan, I was wondering if it was me and had a friend watch me closely when we were in the ring. She couldn't see anything I was doing at all. However, we have never worked up to twenty minutes in heeling under trial conditions to this point. The video thing in an actual trial is a good idea and I will see if I can get someone to video us. I have video of us in practice so I could compare that way. I'd LOVE it to be me!!! But even when I start to talk to her in the ring after we've blown so many points I know we've blown the heeling, she is still 'gone', staring vacantly off to the side. Will give it all a go though Thanks!

Arya - i'm happy to volunteer :D. If you tell me where your next trial will be and i'm free, i'm happy to video you (lol - I can watch the open ring too and pick up some tips!).

[poodlefan]

Ayra it can be very suble changes in body language that convey your stress to the dog. I've had this problem (started trialling with a dog that heeled wide and lagged) and it was most definitely me.

Soooo, you have to learn to relax. SMILE - it will relax the muscles of your neck and shoulders. Look at your dog and smile when you can. Have some rescue remedy. Change your trialling objective. If you start to think more about making time in the ring a positive experience for your dog and less about qualifying then your focus and behaviour changes.

My oldest boy reads me like a book. If I'm stressed, he's worried. He wonders what's wrong. I had to completely change my focus and attitude to get past that. You can retrieve a performance that's going down the drain if you focus on making it positive for the dog.

[Arya]

Poodlefan, I've just had a bit of a brainwave with your post. I swear, I'm not nervous when I go in the ring - LP will agree with that LOL BUT... and here's the big thing, I used to be terribly nervous, at first. Really the first couple of times BAD! Now after about nine trials I am not nervous because I am not expecting anything. This last time I actually went in there just hoping to get *some* good work out of the dog at some stage and determined to improve my walking etc. in the ring myself, to better myself in the ring. But, it is highly possible that the initial bad feelings of nerves I have had in the ring, body posture etc. has made my dog think it's a bad place to be, just in that situation alone, when there is an actual trial on. She acts like she hates it and wants to leave the ring first at the end of the stays. So maybe the initial experiences have imprinted badly on her. This would be one good explanation for sure.

[Arya]

Arya - i'm happy to volunteer . If you tell me where your next trial will be and i'm free, i'm happy to video you (lol - I can watch the open ring too and pick up some tips!).

Hey, thanks LP! It's going to be at Hastings, I think... I have to see what the NDTF schedule is. I'll let you know

[ness]

ROFL leopuppy - yes I will walk out of the ring if she isn't performing. Have I needed to since I established that as a rule NOPE .

[leopuppy04]

ROFL leopuppy - yes I will walk out of the ring if she isn't performing. Have I needed to since I established that as a rule NOPE :D .

I did it a couple of times in stay practice at club (after the sit stays) - it helped immensely. never had to instill it for anything else though.

Arya - you may be right - particularly because of her 'aggression' issues, she looks to you for guidance. Beacuse you are so nervous - maybe she doesn't kwno what to so with herself

[MrsD]

Everyone has different training philosophies, don't they. If nothing else I was thinking yesterday that running into the huge number of problems I've had with my darling dog since she was a pup will in the end make me a MUCH better trainer than I ever was before, as all the dogs I've had since I was a kid were relatively easy to train and easy to work with... from the rotti cross dobe thru to the bcollie cross. Then I got Tess LOL! I bet this happens to others too.

Ain't that the truth , IMO having a difficult dog can teach you more than reading 100 books on training can, getting experience with different breeds & different personalities of dogs can give you a very open mind about how to go about solving problems.

There is lots of good advice in this thread already, IMO (& without seeing the dog myself) I think you & poodlefan have probably hit the nail on the head, It is you (or rather "was" you, you just didnt realise it) to me it sounds like she has connected you being nervous with the ring & has shut down because of it, is this the dog that you once said had huge issues if you couldnt look at her & have eye contact with her? (forgive me if Im wrong & I have the dogs or people mixed up )

You need to stop her from shutting down, I would be taking her to every trial I could get to & be working along the ring ropes making the work fun

- but correct if necessary. And don't forget - baby steps.

Good luck with her.

Edited June 5, 2007 by MrsD

[Tapferhund]

Leopuppy,

Reading your posts you have clearly got the wrong impression of what I was trying to get across in my posts and also of how I train my dogs. Mine are trained just as 'positively' as yours , I teach and train using food, balls and tug toys and then this continues (intermittently) throughout the proofing phase of my training....BUT...and ONLY if I need to, I will introduce a light correction, whether that be voice or hands on(correction on the chain).....if my dog offers me any sort of slow or sloppy work.

How can you expect your dog to have a clear cut work ethic if when he gets something wrong nothing happens to him?

If you told your dog to drop and he did so in his own good time, going down v-e-r-y slowly......or not at all..........what is your reaction towards him for this? How do you get across to him that his not complying is not acceptable to you?

[leopuppy04]

Reading your posts you have clearly got the wrong impression of what I was trying to get across in my posts and also of how I train my dogs. Mine are trained just as 'positively' as yours , I teach and train using food, balls and tug toys and then this continues (intermittently) throughout the proofing phase of my training....BUT...and ONLY if I need to, I will introduce a light correction, whether that be voice or hands on(correction on the chain).....if my dog offers me any sort of slow or sloppy work.

My apologies then - My impression was that unless I correct (read: physical correction) my dog I will never be a reliable dog.

How can you expect your dog to have a clear cut work ethic if when he gets something wrong nothing happens to him?

If you told your dog to drop and he did so in his own good time, going down v-e-r-y slowly......or not at all..........what is your reaction towards him for this? How do you get across to him that his not complying is not acceptable to you?

It isn't a matter of nothing happening to him - if nothing were to happen, I completely agree with you that there is no way that training can progress. If my dog was to either not drop, do so slowly etc,etc.... they simply would not get their reward. Because the reward is so high - they percieve that as a 'correction' per se.... Not only that - they know that they get the 'best' rewards by fast, precise work. Usually I will also instill a no reward marker such as 'nup' or 'uh-uh' in a neutral voice to tell them otherwise. If they were to still misbehave - then i'd pack up everything and go inside - if they aren't willing to work with me, I am not willing to work with them. I'll either go inside or bring another dog out to train that one . Since they fully understand what their consequences are, they are quite willing to work for me etc. I do use voice corrections, but more-so in terms of bad manners. Usually if my dogs do not get it 'right' after a 2nd or 3rd attempt, there is something missing in the training 'link' that I have over-looked.

[Tapferhund]

*"If my dog was to either not drop, do so slowly etc,etc.... they simply would not get their reward. Because the reward is so high - they percieve that as a 'correction' per se.... Not only that - they know that they get the 'best' rewards by fast, precise work. Usually I will also instill a no reward marker such as 'nup' or 'uh-uh' in a neutral voice to tell them otherwise. If they were to still misbehave - then i'd pack up everything and go inside - if they aren't willing to work with me, I am not willing to work with them. I'll either go inside or bring another dog out to train that one smile.gif. Since they fully understand what their consequences are, they are quite willing to work for me etc. I do use voice corrections, but more-so in terms of bad manners."*

Ohhh OK......sorry my misunderstanding , I thought I read that you use positive reinforcement "only" which really is an impossibility . I didn't realize that you DO balance that with negative punishment in your training.

[Tangwyn]

I think there has been a mis-communication with the term "correction". It seems that some think that this means ripping the dog's head off with a check chain. It doesn't. A correction is simply a consequence imposed upon the dog, at a level appropriate for the dog and behaviour, which gives it a clear understanding that its response, or offered behaviour, was incorrect. For my young pup it will mostly be a verbal marker, "Uh-uh" or "Wrong" in a displeased tone. Depending on the severity of the offense a correction may escalate to a leash check but this is always dependant on the temperament of the dog and the stage of its development.

It would be very rare that, where it is vital that a dog exhibit a certain behaviour at a given time, the training technique would be purely positive. For a behaviour to be completely proofed, in all situations, it must move from being a voluntary action to being a compulsory action. This is even the case with assistance dogs, customs and bomb dogs.

[dasha]

Well said Tangwyn

[Tapferhund]

Exactly and Very well said Tangwyn !!!!!!

[leopuppy04]

LOL yep - I agree Tangwyn.

Soo... just to clarify - I understood "correction" to be either harsh voice correction/ physical correction.

LOL - my other corrections are merely a 'consequence' of behaviour .

Tapferhund - LOL - yes I agree *completely* with you in relation to 'purely positive' whereby the dog has never been taught ANY boundaries and merely always taught an 'alternative'.... you can never get anywhere with that and yes, there always needs to be some form of 'consequence' to their behaviour

Glad we are all on the same page now

[Arya]

Here is something else I have been pondering. When a dog is given a correction/consequence for not performing an action - be it no reward, trainer packing up and going inside, turning away from the dog with a frown and refusing to continue to interact, stern voice, physical leash corrections etc. if it is done correctly and consistently and the dog fully understands what's going on, I am thinking it probably reinforces in the dog's mind a sense of security in a way, because their leader is a strong leader who will not put up with any mucking around and as such, can provide safety and security in stressful situations. A leader who never offers any sort of consequence for not doing something isn't really a leader at all, are they.

Incidentally, Steve K9s Triangle of Temptation... I always thought my dog was going well on this until I formally started at the beginning again. It's worth doing from the beginning every now and again just to brush up