MarkS Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Thanks snoozie I am heading out now. I will look at your PM tonight and get back to you. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamuzz Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 For people having major problems walking their dog on lead. I find there are a few reasons for this1. The owners are commencing the walk with the dog in an assertive state of mind. Walking your dog correctly starts before you even place the lead on your dog. You need to reinforce a calm state before even placing the lead on your dog. Once the lead is on the dog, you need to teach him/her to wait. If it means standing their for 10 mins until your dog relaxes and shows a calm submissive state, then thats what you must do. When you get to your gate/door to walk out to commence your walk, you need to make your dog 'wait' again until again he/she dislays correct state of mind and body language. Remember it's all about YOU being the assertive one, not your dog. 90% of dog owners that I have been to their homes for lead walking problems this is the main issue. The owners are in to much of a hurry to go for the walk, so what are they indicating to the dog? Mark, how do you suggest this approach is used in a multi-dog home? For example, Coda will sit quietly at first and Jatz will be fussing around. Then Coda will get tired of waiting and he'll start to fuss by which time Jatz has usually calmed down. And so on it goes. Am I just not waiting for long enough perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 For people having major problems walking their dog on lead. I find there are a few reasons for this1. The owners are commencing the walk with the dog in an assertive state of mind. Walking your dog correctly starts before you even place the lead on your dog. You need to reinforce a calm state before even placing the lead on your dog. Once the lead is on the dog, you need to teach him/her to wait. If it means standing their for 10 mins until your dog relaxes and shows a calm submissive state, then thats what you must do. When you get to your gate/door to walk out to commence your walk, you need to make your dog 'wait' again until again he/she dislays correct state of mind and body language. Remember it's all about YOU being the assertive one, not your dog. 90% of dog owners that I have been to their homes for lead walking problems this is the main issue. The owners are in to much of a hurry to go for the walk, so what are they indicating to the dog? Mark, how do you suggest this approach is used in a multi-dog home? For example, Coda will sit quietly at first and Jatz will be fussing around. Then Coda will get tired of waiting and he'll start to fuss by which time Jatz has usually calmed down. And so on it goes. Am I just not waiting for long enough perhaps? Next time you go for a walk with your dogs.. look at your state of mind and body language... I'd be interested to know. To many look at their dogs, but not at their own body language and the energy they are projecting at that moment. Are you really calm and relaxed when you go for your walks, or are you projecting a totally different attitude when you are about to go for your walk? Your dogs are a good judge of the energy you are projecting Sometimes it take us longer than our dogs to have the right attitude, body language, and the calm assertive behaviour we need to go for a nice walk We are to busy focusing on what our dogs should be doing.. and not looking at what we are projecting to our dogs..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Next time you go for a walk with your dogs.. look at your state of mind and body language... I'd be interested to know. To many look at their dogs, but not at their own body language and the energy they are projecting at that moment.Are you really calm and relaxed when you go for your walks, or are you projecting a totally different attitude when you are about to go for your walk? Your dogs are a good judge of the energy you are projecting Sometimes it take us longer than our dogs to have the right attitude, body language, and the calm assertive behaviour we need to go for a nice walk We are to busy focusing on what our dogs should be doing.. and not looking at what we are projecting to our dogs..... This is what made the difference for my dogs. As soon as I fixed my body language and stress levels, the dogs started walking nicely. BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted January 24, 2008 Author Share Posted January 24, 2008 MarkS- Ive taken onboard your advice and gave it a whirl at the park this morning. Man is she stubborn, she just does not "get" it yet, still pulled after 30 mins of not getting to where she wanted to! Tedious, but i can see that it WILL work if i keep it up-Thanks a million!!! BTW she is generally quite submissive to me at home and does everything i ask of her. Hopefully I can post with glowing reports soon! AND on a more general note, i must say that she is maturing into a beautiful dog for our family. We had a bunch of kids here for our 5 yr old's bday party on saturday and she was SOOOO well behaved. I was immensely proud of her- no jumping, chasing or licking!! She just cruised around happily soaking it all in and doing the occasional trick. And did the same when my sister came around, AND when she accidentally got out of the house in the midst of ferrying children from cars in the rain she went straight back inside when i asked her to!!! Next step is the walking and then the "other problem"... But you'll hear less whining from me about her from now on. Promise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 (edited) Hi deelee2 If your dog is resisiting it's most probably because you are working your dog on a tight leash. When you spin away from your dog and walk in the oposite direction, the leash MUST be loose. As you turn away from your dog you must keep focus on him/her as you turn, if he doesn't follow you give very quick pops on the collar while you keep moving forward. If he does follow then you just walk and encourage with NO pops on the collar. Pulling your dog creates resistance, therefore your dog pulls back on the lead.. You need to have your dog focused on walking forward, not resisting and pulling back. If your dog is focusing on pulling back (resisting), then thats what we are teaching the dog. Your body language, state of mind and intention are so important when using this to train your dog to be attentive under distraction. In the next few weeks I will be placing video training clips on my site. The first lot of clips will be on correct attentiveness training techniques. I don't like giving training advice over the net or in writing, as usually the written word doesn't express exactly what we are trying to explain, and different people interpret the instructions differently. I much prefer to demonstrate first then watch my clients, to ensure they are doing it correctly. Bad technique or timing can cause confusion in your dog, and not be condusive to good training outcomes. Edited January 24, 2008 by MarkS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted January 25, 2008 Author Share Posted January 25, 2008 Hi MarkS, sorry to nag... Tried again today and made extra sure not to pull, used longer leash with limited success. Not expecting her to "get it" overnight but how long should it take? She seemed to be responding then after about 15 minutes going back and forth began to pull away harder for greener pastures and i had to give more frequent "pops" so i headed off home thinking she was getting bored. Should I be limiting the time like i would if i was training for anything else? Looking forward to seeing your videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 K9: look you DO have to walk on a loose leash with the dog but when the dog already has successful episodes of pulling, the only way to sort this is add an aversive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted January 25, 2008 Author Share Posted January 25, 2008 Hi steve, Do you mean like using an e-collar or a punishment? I would dearly love to use an e-collar but its simply not within my financial means, and i'm already using a check-chain which results in a pattern of her speeding up, me correcting, her falling back ad infinitum. generally my fallback position ends up me snapping at her- is that an aversive? I must admit to feeling a bit of head explosion with so much information. Perils of online advice... not conducive to confident training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 (edited) i'm already using a check-chain which results in a pattern of her speeding up, me correcting, her falling back ad infinitum. generally my fallback position ends up me snapping at her- is that an aversive? I had an idea . You could try correcting her before she speeds up or a little bit earlier. I used to do this with bella when she pulled badly and by popping her lead as soon as she looked like she was going forward she didn't get a chance to get into this rhythm of pulling forward and falling back. eta--- I don't think steve's suggestion would be to use the ecollar. He recommended to me flat collar - martingale - prong, starting from left to right. Edited January 25, 2008 by BellasPerson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 (edited) Hi MarkS, sorry to nag...Tried again today and made extra sure not to pull, used longer leash with limited success. Not expecting her to "get it" overnight but how long should it take? She seemed to be responding then after about 15 minutes going back and forth began to pull away harder for greener pastures and i had to give more frequent "pops" so i headed off home thinking she was getting bored. Should I be limiting the time like i would if i was training for anything else? Looking forward to seeing your videos. Hi deelee2 The problem we have is that I have no idea how you are going about it, or if your timing is correct, and not able to look at your body language when you are carrying out the exercise. Nor can I view your dogs body language. Body language and attitude have so much to do with this type of training. You are probably not firm and assertive enough with her, or you could be too assertive at the wrong times and she is going into avoidance. So many people just keep turning and instantly correcting without watching their dog. It is SO IMPORTANT that when your dog turns to follow you when you turn that there is NO correction. If you turn and she isn't attentive towards you, you must maintain the same pace and walk in an assertive manner without showing any hesitation or slowing down. Also to many turn, the dog doesn't follow so they stop, face their dog and jerk on the lead. This is wrong.. You must keep the pace going, and walk confidently away from your dog. If you sense your dog is trying to respond, you DO NOT correct, instead encourage. If you are overly correcting your dog, you will create avoidance behaviour, as your dog dosen't know what to do to stop the correction. I see this a lot when people are not watching their dog when they turn and continually correcting their dog. What generally happens then is that if your dog IS attentive toward you, and you turn the dog tries to avoid the correction by quickly pulling back away from you. Then again the owner corrects. The dog has no out from the correction. You also don't wait till your dog is pulling out in front. You turn when your dog is not being attentive towards you. You watch your dog, if she isn't paying attention to you, you turn, you don't wait until she is out in front of you. Hopefully when I get the videos done, you will have a better idea of what I am talking about, and know where you are going wrong. With is method, in about 80% of dogs I can have them being attentive towards me in under 20 mins. But remembering I have been training dogs for many years. But there is no reason you shouldn't start seeing results that fast if your timing, body language, and encouragement and corrections are carried out appropriately.. Edited January 25, 2008 by MarkS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted January 25, 2008 Author Share Posted January 25, 2008 Ok, Seriously discouraged and over it all at the moment. Obviously is ME that is not "getting" anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrunoBella Posted January 25, 2008 Share Posted January 25, 2008 Ok, Seriously discouraged and over it all at the moment. Obviously is ME that is not "getting" anything. Big hug deelee2. Don't get discouraged. 80% of people I see out walking their dogs have no idea how to do so correctly. That leaves 20% who have an idea. You are at least trying to work out how to fix this so that puts you in the top 22% of dog walkers :D In the last 15 minutes, I spilled coffee grounds all over my sink and opened my rubbish bin and was attacked by a swarm of flies. I've decided to have the evening off now :p Have a drink, it's friday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted January 25, 2008 Author Share Posted January 25, 2008 Good idea BP! Cheers! And thanks for the pep talk. I know what you mean about "those" people, trying hard not to be one. Wish they'd stop staring at me whilst i'm walking my dog backwards and forwards though!! :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkS Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 deelee2 Please, don't be discouraged. It's like reading a dog training book and then going out and doing what the book says. Unfortunately the book isn't about you and YOUR dog, nor can a book stand back and observe you, and let you know what you are doing right and where you are going wrong. The amount of houses I have been to and you see 4 or 5 books on dog training sitting on the table, and the owner still can't get it right. Yet in 1 lesson, and me observing what they are doing wrong, it all clicks in. So don't feel you are alone. Thats why I don't really like giving advice in writing, and not being able to observe what you are doing wrong, to steer you in the right direction. I am hoping all going well, I will have attentiveness training videos on my site for free within the next month or so, for anyone to look at and learn the techinque. But again the problem still comes down to someone being able to observe you, if the technique is not working out. I honour you, because you are making the effort. Don't give up... You will succeed if deep down that is your ultimate belief. Most important point to remember...believe in yourself, and that will transfere to your dog training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardog Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 :cool: MarkS, you are a breath of fresh, very intelligent and common sense advice to this forum. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamuzz Posted January 26, 2008 Share Posted January 26, 2008 Good idea BP! Cheers! And thanks for the pep talk. I know what you mean about "those" people, trying hard not to be one. Wish they'd stop staring at me whilst i'm walking my dog backwards and forwards though!! :cool: Deelee - no chance of getting up to Steve? As Mark has pointed out, it could be a simple timing thing, and one session with a trainer could get you over the hurdle. And we are nearly at the end of the month, and you did say "next month" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tarope Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Deelee, I don't come into the training thread and I haven't read all the posts, so what kind of dog do you have ? How long have you been trying to stop your dog pulling on the lead ? This problem should have been corrected at obedience training, I know it takes time especially with some dogs that are very stubborn but in the end they all walk nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kobayashi Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 This is what i do when taking willow for a walk. She is getting a little better, but can still be a pain. OH still prefers to use the gentle leader, as she doesn't always have the time when walking to worry about correction and stuff, but i do, so i am training her with a normal collar still. But like i said, shes improving. We put the lead on her, and wait till she calms down before even leaving the lounge room. When we get to the front door, she already knows to sit and wait, hehe. I also make her wait a minute or two in the front yard before we set off. She's still a little excited once we start, so what i tried to do, was pick up my pace a little to start with. Which she seems to enjoy and love :D She doesnt pull at ALL when i am walking faster, but of course i am unfit atm, and cant keep it up for the whole walk! And about halfway through our walk, we go through a park, so i run like hell through it, and she runs next to me, thinking its a great game!!! She definately seems happier with the times i can go faster. I am looking forward to obedience classes, ONCE i can find a good group to join up nearish me (north eastern adelaide). I swear its more worrying then finding a school for the OHs son :x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dee lee Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share Posted January 28, 2008 (edited) Having bad day, bloody dog has "deplanted" 2 of my prized gardenia bushes, fury does not come close to how i feel when i look at her at the moment... What next? wondering if my hard work will ever start paying off. Anyway... after my unsuccessful park back and forths, followed markS's advice on behaviour when leaving for a walk. waited til she calmed down, first in the living room, then on the porch then went for a walk. whenever she looked like getting ahead I corrected her (as per Bella's person's advice) rather than waiting til she did. This did seem to work quite well, combined with a few on walk training sessions to get her to pay attention to me (sit, drop, stay- we dont move on til she looks at me). All on check chain of course but not a bad run, better than i HAVE had anyway. Not counting my chickens yet though. Now to deal with the gardenias... Kamuzz, "next" month might have to wait for a while, having financial "issues"... Tarope, She is a 12month old staffyx (prob kelpie) and i have been trying to get her to walk nicely probably for about 4 months- she hasnt been to obedience, just to a trainer and stubborn is not the word!! Edited January 28, 2008 by deelee2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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