Jigsaw Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 My 8mth koolie pup has a congenital heart murmur, Grade 1 to 1.5 at present. The vet has said that she may never experience any problems with it and live a long life or she may develop problems with age. The main worry to keep excess weight off her - successful so far! I have noticed in the last couple of days just how irregular her heart beat is too - when she's been asleep on my lap during cuddles - it doesn't happen very often so I savour it! What are people's general experiences with a dog that has a congenital heart murmur - have they led a long life or has the condition deteriorated due to normal wear and tear in a dog's life? I was hoping to get her to a cardiologist before Christmas but a sudden serious illness in my family will possibly not make this likely to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 like humans keep fit,good weight.Regular vet visits & when able to see a specialist. Im no expert on murmurs but if it doesnt get worse than you should have a dog that could live a very long & enjoyable life(most likely med free). The problem is murmurs can get worse with age & basically i think its a wait & see thing & just do all you can to insure your pup has the best chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 Jigsaw, I haven't had a dog with a heart problem, but I just thought I'd ask about the irregular heart beat while she's sleeping. Could it be that it's just a sinus arrhythmia - that is, the heart rate changing with the breathing patterns (generally speeds up as they take a breath and slows down between breaths)? Sinus arrhythmia's are completely normal. Hopefully it's nothing to worry about and it never causes her problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leema Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 Mac has a bad heart murmur (never remember what it was graded as), but you can feel the irregularities to its beat when you put your hand to his chest. It's never caused him problems, as far as we can see. He's never not had a murmur so we only know what is normal for him. He's going to be 7yrs in January with no inclining of problems. We do keep him at a lean weight and never force an exercise regime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InspectorRex Posted August 29, 2008 Share Posted August 29, 2008 I am no expert on ddog heart murmurs but I have had one for over 20 years now and just have to have regular check-ups with a cardiologist and if I have to have any medical procedures, even dental, I have to go onto antibiotics before and after the procedure. Mine is caused by a faulty Mitral Valve. Did the Vet give you a cause? if not asd for referral to Vet cardiac specialist.I would ask for a referral anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Kuntz Posted August 30, 2008 Share Posted August 30, 2008 Heart murmurs in puppies can be caused by several different things, some of which need treatment and some of which do not. Many are completely benign and some even resolve with time. Common causes of heart murmurs in puppies include: Patent ductus arteriosus- this is a connection between the pulmonary artery and the aorta which is supposed to close at birth. If it does not close, dogs will have a continuous or "washing machine" murmur. These need to be repaired surgically, and the success rate is very high- greater than 90% with a good surgeon. These are quite common. Atrial septal defect- this is a hole in the "low pressure" region of the heart. Quite large holes can be tolerated without surgery. Some of these can be repaired using a plug which is introduced through the femoral vein. These are uncommon. Ventricular septal defect- this is a hole in the "high pressure" region of the heart. These can be more serious because of the effect of the high pressure on the right ventricle. Many can be treated medically. Many don't need any treatment. Pulmonic stenosis- this is a narrowing of the valve between the right ventricle and the pulmonary artery. The determinant of whether or not they need surgery is the size of the pressure gradient between the two sides of the valve. Many of these can be treated with a balloon introduced through the jugular vein. These are uncommon. Aortic stenosis- this is a narrowing of the valve between the left ventricle and the aorta. They occur more commonly in Golden Retrievers. Again, the need for treatment is determined by the pressure gradient across the valve. Repair is not currently done in Australia. One group in the US repaired several and found that the success with surgery was no better than with medical management. These are uncommon. Tricuspid dysplasia. This is a defect in the valve between the right atrium and the right ventricle. These usually do not cause a problem. Mitral dysplasia. This is the typical Cavalier King Charles Spaniel congenital heart defect. Medical management is usually initiated when clinical signs start. Surgery is not currently an option in Australia. Tetralogy of Fallot. This is a combination of several defects and can be managed effectively with a "simple" cardiac surgical procedure. Having said all of this, most murmurs don't require any treatment. The irregular heart beat that you are hearing is likely to be a respiratory sinus arrhythmia which is completely normal in dogs (but not in cats). It arises from the heart speeding up to take advantage of a lung full of fresh new oxygen with each breath. I would recommend seeing a cardiac specialist who can use an echocardiogram and electrocardiogram to determine the cause of the murmur and make sure that there is not an arrhythmia that needs to be addressed. I would recommend addressing this soonish because some of these causes of murmurs can cause secondary damage if not addressed early. I don't mean to stress you. Most of these are benign and do not require care. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InspectorRex Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 Welcome to the Forum Charles . We DogzOnline folk are very priviledged to have a person of your expertise on this wonderful Forum Colleen and Collies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Kuntz Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 That is a pleasure. Please feel free to direct questions to me and I will answer them as soon as I can. If I don't get to it quickly enough, send me a message directly. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigsaw Posted August 31, 2008 Author Share Posted August 31, 2008 Thank you all for your replies, especially to you Charles with your detailed reply. I did not realise there were such varied causes of heart murmurs, mind you I have not had cause previously to examine them in detail either! My pup's condition was picked up on her first vet check when I picked her up at 71/2 weeks. I hoped that it would close naturally as sometimes happens but also believed she was possibly a little old for this to happen. Diagnosis was confirmed when she was desexed, however vet did not investigate any further other to confirm. I would like to get her to a cardiac specialist asap as I would like to know exactly where I stand. Charles, would you know if there are any cardiac specialists located in Sydney? I know of one in Brisbane that travels to Sydney, but are there any others? I understand that they are few and far between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InspectorRex Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 You will certainly get lots of messages Charles, a person with your expertise and reputation is a Godsend to this forum Colleen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Kuntz Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 I am not aware of any cardiologists in Sydney. An internal medicine specialist should be able to do a good cardiac ultrasound and electrocardiogram. I don't think you necessarily need a cardiologist if it is difficult to find one. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 Hi, Charles, and welcome to the forum. Hope you enjoy. I am sure we shall all benefit from your input and expertise. Jigsaw, I have a 9 year old cocker spaniel with a double murmur - ie, on both sides. I have no idea what it is - vet had a "good guess" when he was a puppy, but I've forgotten, and he's never had an ECG or a scan. I "think" the vet at the time said it was not one which could be repaired .... it's nine years ago, after all, I've forgotten!! He lives a "normal" life, runs around, swims etc - but I do control his weight. Good luck. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Kuntz Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 It is hard to say what is causing the murmur, especially since it has been present for so long. My tendency is to say that it probably will not ever cause a problem. If you were particularly keen, an echocardiogram would be a good idea. Other things that can be considered include chest radiographs- to look for cardiac enlargement, and an electrocardiogram, for the same reason. Again, a murmur that has not cause a problem so far is probably not a big deal. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cockerlover Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 Welcome! welcome !welcome! Charles ,how great it is to have a *real*vet jion the forum !!!thanx for yr explanation on heart murmurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Kuntz Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 No worries. If you have questions, just post them, and give me a nudge by email. I am happy to discuss surgery, orthopaedics, neurology and a bit of cardiology. Please no skin questions... I take my own dogs to a dermatologist when they have problems. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 (edited) Hi Charles - apparently there is no treatment for whatever this murmur is. It is quite noisy. I breed cavs and boxers, and this little bloke was in the pet shop - he had failed his vet check because of the murmur, and was looking for somewhere to stay for 4 weeks till his next one. I love cockers, and I hadn't had one for a few years, so I put my hand up ---- and you know the rest!! The breeder would have taken him back, but once the pet shop said he could have a home which wouldn't sue if anything happened to him, he was mine. So, he is having a good life until whatever happens. :D Thanks for that offer, so kind, and I know, appreciated by all. Edited September 1, 2008 by Jed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigsaw Posted October 22, 2008 Author Share Posted October 22, 2008 (edited) Paxy is having an echocardiagram and ultrasound tomorrow! When I spoke to the vet two weeks ago he said he wasn't worried too much about it but he was happy to refer me as it was the only way to find out exactly what was what. When she was stung by a bee the next day the vet treating her said to definitely do the ultrasound as she had been unconscious for over 10 minutes and her heart rate was much to slow after treatment and recovery in the surgery for a dog who had just been through major trauma. Edited October 22, 2008 by Jigsaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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