Training The See-saw For Agility

[Kavik]

I am getting a training sized see-saw for my birthday and am deciding how I am going to train it, so am looking to see how other people have done it. So far with the one I have (that Kaos is too heavy for so I don't use it anymore) I have had stairs under it so that it doesn't fall so far.

I have found some interesting clips which show different methods:

Dog runs up it, food on end, dog stops on end, handler lowers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ta7ajfmUt78

Lowered see-saw, dog runs along it, 2o2o, slowly height raised

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWrAgfjQzaY

Dog jumping on end or placed on end and then end dropped, nose touch on ground at end

[Kavik]

Nobody wants to share how they taught the see-saw?

Or even comments on the videos?

[shantiah]

Nobody wants to share how they taught the see-saw? :D

Or even comments on the videos?

Hi Kavik

Dont know about the rest of Sydney but out here we had a massive storm last night which resulted in a blackout from about 7pm till I dont know when. Power back on this morning though

Great birthday pressie

Edited November 14, 2008 by shantiah

[Kavik]

Hi shantiah

We had a brief blackout for a few minutes only here. Yeah I was really happy with the pressie

[Vickie]

I am fairly happy with Shine's seesaw. I initially taught her to jump on the end & bang it as in the last clip but without the nosetouch. At the same time I was teaching her to run over it fast with tables at either end so it didn't tip. She didn't have any fear of the movement or noise right from the start so we didn't spend a heap of time on the bang (but I would spend as long as required if the dog showed any reaction). Once both these were good, I reduce the height of one of the tables, so that she could run & then bang a bit, then we did it the whole way. I use 2 words, Tip to get on it (and differentiate it from a DW) & bang to remind her she needs to stop.

Her SS is pretty good, but every now & then in a trial I still see her try to ride the up ramp of a DW, thinking it's a SS, but I see that in SO many dogs. Depending on the layout of the course, it is almost impossible for the dogs to know which is which since the cleats were removed on the DW.

I'm sorry to say it, but I'm not a fan of training SS's unless they are the correct length, weight & height. I think they are responsible for most of the hesitant performances we see in competition. It is like tricking the dog, they learn a number of strides, feel a tip or a pivot point and then at clubs & in comps, those 2 things are totally different. I thik the rulebook already allows way too much variation and I hope this is fixed at the next review.

I'm also not a fan of nose touches for SS's as they teach a dog to shift their weight forward, when in fact they should be shifting their weight back on landing.

Trim's SS has never been great. B/c she is fast & driven, it works but I wish her first experiences on it had been different.

Edited November 14, 2008 by Vickie

[Kavik]

Thanks for the input Vickie

I was going to get a full sized one but then realised there was no way I would ever be able to move it and it probably wouldn't fit in my yard anyway. The main thing I am worried about using a little one is that the height and movement will be so much more on a big one, and will feel totally different. I was wondering about how the dogs differentiate the see-saw from the dogwalk, interesting that they do seem to have problems with that, something to be aware of.

ETA: I can't see too many clubs allowing you to practice getting them to bang on the end :D especially considering one of the clubs I am going to won't take out the contact equipment at all for the beginners class because it is 'too heavy' and they won't let you get out of beginners unless you can do the contact equipment

Edited November 14, 2008 by Kavik

[JulesP]

We did lots of training on the seesaw. First we just had the seesaw flat on the ground and got the contacts happening. Then we had the ss just up to a tiny height so the dog could feel the movement. At the same time we had the ss up at full height with tables to stop the movement but the dogs got used to the height. Each week the ss on the ground got taller and the tables got lower to create more tip. We also did things like banging the ss with the dogs sitting near it and bouncing the dogs on the end of the ss (put dog on ss and handler lifts ss up and down).

[Vickie]

I was going to get a full sized one but then realised there was no way I would ever be able to move it :D and it probably wouldn't fit in my yard anyway. The main thing I am worried about using a little one is that the height and movement will be so much more on a big one, and will feel totally different.

It does, that is the problem. As I have offered before, I have a full sized SS in my backyard which you are welcome to come & use.

ETA: I can't see too many clubs allowing you to practice getting them to bang on the end

Well some certainly do, I have done at the 2 clubs I have been a member of. I often just train one piece of equipment or one skill instead of the sequence others are running. No point trying to run a particular sequence if you don't have the tools/skills to do it.

Edited November 14, 2008 by Vickie

[SSS]

With Muffin, (first agility dog) I think we just lured her along to the end, handler lowering seesaw, or sometimes the seesaw was stopped by a table so it didnt bang too far. Slowly make the drop bigger until the handlers isnt helping... I think its a terrible method, or at least for my dog it was. SHe is hesitant on seesaws and always pauses right in the middle - and only weighing 7kg usually doesnt tip the thing! I need to do some serious re-training of it but its just finding the time.

With Oscar, I knew that the original method I'd used was bad. He is even smaller than Muffin so I couldnt afford to have another dog that stopped in the middle. I did the 'place on end, let them bang it' without nose touches. He started to think the bang was fun (maniac lol) and it didnt take long for him to be able to run up the seesaw and excitedly wait for it to bang. He is now very reliable on it and never flies off because he enjoys the bang too much :D

[SSS]

ETA: I can't see too many clubs allowing you to practice getting them to bang on the end especially considering one of the clubs I am going to won't take out the contact equipment at all for the beginners class because it is 'too heavy' and they won't let you get out of beginners unless you can do the contact equipment

:D That doesn't really make sense does it... not letting you practice but then expecting your dogs to be able to do it! As I started training OScar a few years after Muffin, I just spoke to my clubs and said that I wanted to train the seesaw the way I described above, and they were fine with it. I guess it does depend on the club though....

[Kavik]

I may take you up on that offer Vickie! Will just require some organisation.

[Kavik]

This particular club seems to have a communication problem about what is supposed to be taught in each class. I was also told I had to be able to do front and rear crosses to get out of beginners. I can do front crosses, but haven't done rear crosses. But when I asked the instructor last week, she said they weren't supposed to teach rear crosses in beginners. You also have to be able to weave to get out of beginners . . . we are close, but not there yet.

[BittyMooPeeb]

Ditto with MuffinCav and Vicki.

First dog was trained with luring and slowly lowering the see-saw by hand. It took a while and he is hesitant on it still.

Second dog played the 'banging the end' game, then ran along the see saw supported by two tables (so it didnt move at all) then gradually one of the tables was lowered, then the other. She learned in 1/4 the time, and still races happily to the end. She is only 3kg and she doesnt care at all if it flies to the ground with a big bang

[kelpiechick]

Kavik - I am petite (155cm), not particularly strong - LOL- and have no trouble moving my seesaw by myself. OK, I need to take it apart first, but it is designed to do so quickly and easily.

The plank is in 2 parts which fit together so snugly you can't tell but make it very easy to move and easy to store. Plus it is fully height adjustable which means I can start training in the method with the table others have described, then move to a very low seesaw and gradually adjust it (has a chain under the base) link by link so that the height rise happens so gradually the dogs almost don't notice. This is the same design seesaw we use at club as our training seesaw - although much harder to do the link by link thing in a club situation (but still means that they don't have to go from 'mini to full height' in one step) great for home though. With my youngest kelpie I moved one link up every day (would have gone slower if there were a problem) and it only took about 2 weeks of doing this to get to full height.

You would also have the option of getting someone to make you a full size one in aluminum which would be even lighter but pretty costly. Worth it if you can afford it though. (Hell, lobby for an expensive birthday present - you're worth it )

I agree that I would go for something that goes to full height - have never seen a training seesaw in a smaller size (if that's what you meant) but also agree that it may cause problems down the track. (At least you've got the offer to practice on a full length one though ) Not sure about NSW? but in Vic. there is so much variance between seesaws from place to place that it can cause problems even for experienced dogs, so I can only imagine what going from 'size to size' may do.

[Kavik]

I am about the same size as you Kelpiechick!

I haven't seen any full size seesaws that are designed to come apart like that. I managed to coerce the club into bringing out their small seesaw at training last week, and even with two people it was really heavy and hard to move :D .

It's been really hard to find ANY seesaws to buy in Australia - I spent SO long searching - thought about getting my mum to bring one from the States even

[kelpiechick]

I can PM you details of the 'maker' if you like - but only problem is he is in Victoria.

Are you on the Agility Australia list? If so, maybe posting a request for anyone that makes a fully height adjustable seesaw might get you a contact for NSW - there must be more people out there making something like this, surely?

I can photograph the base to show how it adjusts if that is any help?

[Kavik]

That would be great. Thanks

[Kavik]

OK so I am going to try to find a full sized seesaw. Does anyone know where I can get one or at least a base?

[Kavik]

Is the seesaw the same height etc here as in the States, if I wanted to get a base from the States?

[squeak]

These guys to a puppy see-saw and also say that they are willing to make whatever you require - only problem is that they are in Victoria

http://www.k9events.com/Equipment_Catalogue.pdf