Kelpie-i Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) That is interesting Kelpie-i, the endorphin sensitivity in sibes must be quite strong, stronger than that in other breeds and certainly stronger than my own! Perhaps the selection pressure was inadvertant in selecting dogs which enjoyed running for running's sake? Perhaps it was a random mutation resulting in stronger response to the endorphins released by excercise, it would be interesting to compare a running sibe's endorphin levels to the levels in a running wolf, would be nice if it were possible. tkay, I speak of sled dogs in general, not Sibes in particular, and from what Ray states, yes they breed for specific traits such as the love of running as well as specific gaits and body structure. It takes years and years to get the "perfect" team. He stated that if a person wanted to rehome their "out of control" dog, that would be the dog they would look at recruiting. If you look at the Alaskan Huskies and other sled dogs, they are dogs with slightly elongated backs for longer strides. But it is not speed they look for, but rather the steadiness of the gait and the length of the stride. It's all in Ray Coppinger's book if you're intereted in reading it. Does 'opposition reflex' have anything (even a small part) to do with the pulling? I wonder if sibes are more sensitive to it (generally speaking). Not to the exclusion of their genetic trend for running of course Erny, this was not mentioned by Ray therefore I would doubt that this is the reason they (sled dogs) enjoy mushing. He did speak about the opposition reflex but how it can hinder the training of assistance dogs due to unwanted force and/or incorrect positioning of equipment. Can you explain to me the difference between a team that does 5 training runs per week of say between 40 - 80 miles and the "work" that say the esikmo's and the trappers who used to use the dogs in their daily lives is? My guess is the did the same work, probably pulled the same weights, did day runs, did over night expedition runs etc. People who work their dogs for sport don't just pull them out of a backyard and expect them to run a 1000 miles. These dogs are worked, conditioned, trained mentaly and physically to run in harness over long distances pulling a light load. The race itself is just a small portion of these dogs lives. You need to get them to that point. It is the training that would be equal to the true working environment. Good point SilverHaze, of course training and actually running the races can be just as gruelling as real work, but I would dare say that hundreds of years ago, the dogs were not looked after as well as they are today, therefore their fitness levels and general wellbeing would not have been as our dogs today who don't actually "work". I would expect that most of the true working dogs back then, didn't live very long lives. Today we have specific diets, booties on the dog's feet, proper ganglines and angling/positioning of such to reduce resistence and aerodynamic sleds to help slice through ice and wind. The sport is certainly designed to simulate work but I don't personally think it would have matched the true working conditions of yesteryear. :rolleyes: Yup - i sure did, many of them are also difficult to find the veins on when wanting to draw blood, and many also have larger hearts! Pretty much the same as Phar Lap, although I think he was actually born that way...amazing is Here is a small piece from Ray's book: "Running is Social behaviour...running together as a team is a social event, a system of togetherness. The description of a social system is very different from the way dog teams are often described. The pervasive cliche is that they are like a pack of wolves, with a leader which dominates the pack. The analogy then designates the driver as the supreme pack leader, the so-called alpha dog, exercising his will over his pack and forcing them to run with threats of physical violence. Nothing could be further from the truth. Dogs are not wolves, dogs are not running as a pack. A pack is about chasing something. Sled dogs are running because other dogs are running. They are motivated by something the animal behaviourists call social facilitation. There is a rhythm to their run and they can hear that rhythm and they run to it. When you stand on the back of a sled, you can feel it. It is powerful.......The stucture and behaviour of a dog may superficially resemble that of wolves but in fact, to focus on similarities does the dog a great dis-service. Sled dogs are an evolutionary advancement over wolves. Sled dogs are as close to an evolutionary perfection as you can get...." So there you have it...apart from it being a feel good thing, the running of sled dogs is done in drive....PACK drive! Edited February 7, 2009 by Kelpie-i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benji&Cuddles Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) That is interesting Kelpie-i, the endorphin sensitivity in sibes must be quite strong, stronger than that in other breeds and certainly stronger than my own! Perhaps the selection pressure was inadvertant in selecting dogs which enjoyed running for running's sake? Perhaps it was a random mutation resulting in stronger response to the endorphins released by excercise, it would be interesting to compare a running sibe's endorphin levels to the levels in a running wolf, would be nice if it were possible. tkay, I speak of sled dogs in general, not Sibes in particular, and from what Ray states, yes they breed for specific traits such as the love of running as well as specific gaits and body structure. It takes years and years to get the "perfect" team. He stated that if a person wanted to rehome their "out of control" dog, that would be the dog they would look at recruiting. If you look at the Alaskan Huskies and other sled dogs, they are dogs with slightly elongated backs for longer strides. But it is not speed they look for, but rather the steadiness of the gait and the length of the stride. It's all in Ray Coppinger's book if you're intereted in reading it. Does 'opposition reflex' have anything (even a small part) to do with the pulling? I wonder if sibes are more sensitive to it (generally speaking). Not to the exclusion of their genetic trend for running of course Erny, this was not mentioned by Ray therefore I would doubt that this is the reason they (sled dogs) enjoy mushing. He did speak about the opposition reflex but how it can hinder the training of assistance dogs due to unwanted force and/or incorrect positioning of equipment. Can you explain to me the difference between a team that does 5 training runs per week of say between 40 - 80 miles and the "work" that say the esikmo's and the trappers who used to use the dogs in their daily lives is? My guess is the did the same work, probably pulled the same weights, did day runs, did over night expedition runs etc. People who work their dogs for sport don't just pull them out of a backyard and expect them to run a 1000 miles. These dogs are worked, conditioned, trained mentaly and physically to run in harness over long distances pulling a light load. The race itself is just a small portion of these dogs lives. You need to get them to that point. It is the training that would be equal to the true working environment. Good point SilverHaze, of course training and actually running the races can be just as gruelling as real work, but I would dare say that hundreds of years ago, the dogs were not looked after as well as they are today, therefore their fitness levels and general wellbeing would not have been as our dogs today who don't actually "work". I would expect that most of the true working dogs back then, didn't live very long lives. Today we have specific diets, booties on the dog's feet, proper ganglines and angling/positioning of such to reduce resistence and aerodynamic sleds to help slice through ice and wind. The sport is certainly designed to simulate work but I don't personally think it would have matched the true working conditions of yesteryear. :rolleyes: Yup - i sure did, many of them are also difficult to find the veins on when wanting to draw blood, and many also have larger hearts! Pretty much the same as Phar Lap, although I think he was actually born that way...amazing is Here is a small piece from Ray's book: "Running is Social behaviour...running together as a team is a social event, a system of togetherness. The description of a social system is very different from the way dog teams are often described. The pervasive cliche is that they are like a pack of wolves, with a leader which dominates the pack. The analogy then designates the driver as the supreme pack leader, the so-called alpha dog, exercising his will over his pack and forcing them to run with threats of physical violence. Nothing could be further from the truth. Dogs are not wolves, dogs are not running as a pack. A pack is about chasing something. Sled dogs are running because other dogs are running. They are motivated by something the animal behaviourists call social facilitation. There is a rhythm to their run and they can hear that rhythm and they run to it. When you stand on the back of a sled, you can feel it. It is powerful.......The stucture and behaviour of a dog may superficially resemble that of wolves but in fact, to focus on similarities does the dog a great dis-service. Sled dogs are an evolutionary advancement over wolves. Sled dogs are as close to an evolutionary perfection as you can get...." So there you have it...apart from it being a feel good thing, the running of sled dogs is done in drive....PACK drive! What about single dogs? Would Dog + Handler constitute a pack? From Midol (Mums PC) Edited February 7, 2009 by Benji&Cuddles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) I haven't heard of 'opposition reflex' before, is it like when horses push back when pressure is applied? If so that could very well be a key element - do you know what purpose this reflex developed for? Without researching it specifically, I would expect it is a survival reflex. We have it too (think of someone grabbing you to drag you off somewhere .... your instinct would be to pull against them). Some dogs are more 'yielding' than others. That's what made me wonder if sibes are particularly more likely to brace against pressure than they would yield to it. Edited February 7, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 As Erny said, resistance or oppositional reflex is survival.Humans in certain situations also use OR. I see some in the thread are stuck on the outdated belief or view that for a dog to be in prey drive there has to be a prey item present to be chased.Prey drive is much more diverse and complex than a Dog chasing and seizing a prey animal or item. A basic example is a Bloodhound trailing.No prey item in sight!!!The trail may be days old and no visible prey item but the Bloodhound is in full drive trailing. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) Tony it seems that you are absolutely hell bent on everything being due to Prey drive. Sorry, but everytime someone asks about dog behaviour, you insist on it being about predatory drive. Why? A basic example is a Bloodhound trailing.No prey item in sight!!!The trail may be days old and no visible prey item but the Bloodhound is in full drive trailing. Tony This is what a bloodhound is bred to do. They BREED for these traits and it has nothing to do with predatory drive. I have never heard of people saying "that bloodhound had great prey drive". Seriously, this is a very bad example! :rolleyes: Sled dogs pull because that's what is bred for, it has nothing to do with survival and nothing to do with predatory drive. Dogs have more than "one speed" and their lives do not depend entirely in being engaged in predatory activity. To think such things is simply ludicrous. Perhaps, just perhaps, the reasons for dogs doing what they enjoy might have something to do with Pack drive as opposed to prey drive for once. And perhaps, just perhaps, just because a dog runs, it is not necessarily for prey drive. Not everything a dog does is for "survival" purposes, some of it is just done because it feels good to do so and also what we breed into them. I see some in the thread are stuck on the outdated belief or view that for a dog to be in prey drive there has to be a prey item present to be chased.Prey drive is much more diverse and complex than a Dog chasing and seizing a prey animal or item. I cannot believe you think I am "stuck on the outdated belief". On the contrary Tony, I attend just about every lecture I can from "modern day" behaviourists and animal biologists and learn the new information that is studied today about animal behaviour. It is YOU who is stuck in the ancient "predatory drive" rut. C'mon Tony, look outside the Predatory drive square... Edited February 7, 2009 by Kelpie-i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Ooooh ... I feel somewhat put in my place too :rolleyes:. Although I wasn't really saying the dogs pull to survive as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 This is what a bloodhound is bred to do. They BREED for these traits and it has nothing to do with predatory drive. I get what you are saying K-i .... what genetics do you think the art of scenting (which we've enhanced by breeding for that as a specific 'talent') relates to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) Scenting is most certainly an offset predatory motor pattern. It is exaggerated in the bloodhound genetics (ie what we have created and continue to breed for). We have enhanced the dog's features to ensure maximum scenting capabilities. But to say that the bloodhound is scenting today due to "predatory" drive and drive satisfaction and as a survival instinct, or whatever else people like to conjure up is not correct. Edited February 7, 2009 by Kelpie-i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) ... Edited because K-i edited :rolleyes: Edited February 7, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) Scenting is most certainly an offset predatory motor pattern. It is exaggerated in the bloodhound genetics (ie what we have created and continue to breed for). We have enhanced the dog's features to ensure maximum scenting capabilities. But to say that the bloodhound is scenting today due to "predatory" drive and drive satisfaction and as a survival instinct, or whatever else people like to conjure up is not correct. As per our telephone conversation that we've both just shared, IMO scenting today is an enhanced (by selective breeding) instinct that haunts back to survival. Whether it be a prey drive or not and whether "survival" is a conscious thought by the dog at the time is another matter. A wild wolf and also our domesticated dog might use scent to guide him back to the pack, so 'pack' drive could prove to be an element of scenting behaviour as well. Edited February 7, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) Based on a great telephone conversation I just had with Erny, we concluded that the instinct behind sled pulling and racing is based on the innate migratory instinct, termed the "migratory drift". It is a behaviour derived from pack drive and lends the pack to form and migrate from one point to another which is exactly what a team of sled dogs, Sibes or otherwise, do. This migrating behaviour involves either walking or trotting from point A to point B but not run as running consumes too much energy whereas walking and trotting conserves the most amount of energy. The dogs are able to cover a great distanct by maintaining a steady gait without exhausting themselves. This rings true with the "social facilitation" theory. I'm not gifted with eloquent writing so I hope this makes sense. Edited February 7, 2009 by Kelpie-i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyBlue Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 I have a labx which I bikejor with. I started off riding the bike with her running beside on a lead. However in the interest of finding a way to do it a bit safer I came across bikejoring/dog scootering (apparently a big thing in europe and the us). Ive promptly taught her to lead on foot and using rollerblades or a small scooter with much success, I cant wait until the weather cools down to try at some higher speeds on the bike. She absolutely loves it. Each time I put the harness on she becomes more focussed and intent on pulling forward. Which Im guessing is the drive that youre talking about with the sledding dogs. I would have initially hazarded a guess that was due to selective breeding for a fast dog driven to run. However my dog has not been selectively bred to pull in harness. She has always been a driven retriever but the more I do with her the more is seem that she is very keen and quick to learn anything I am willing to teach. This makes me think that it is more a pack drive. Sled dogs run in a team or as they see it a pack. This is what the pack does and the need to fit in tells them that they should do what the pack does. Most social animal are instinctively obsessive about fitting in. How many times have you heard of a good kid that is in a bad crowd??? Out of interest, is there anyone in eastern Melbourne who also bikejors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Ooo ooo! Does that mean my migration theory was correct? Woohoo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Midol Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Ooo ooo! Does that mean my migration theory was correct? Woohoo! But it doesn't count because you have an imitation sibe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Ooo ooo! Does that mean my migration theory was correct? Woohoo! But it doesn't count because you have an imitation sibe. Nope mine is the whizz bang red version totally souped up - you saw him whizzing around today he runs way fast :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonymc Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Erny and Kelpie-I we will have to agree to disagree. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) That's fair enough Tony. However, I don't understand in this instance where the answer to the sled dog's instinct to run relates to prey drive. What is the team of sled dogs seeking? What is the drive satisfaction at the end of the run? When the sled dogs are not travelling fast, what is the motivation behind their enthusiasm to continue to pull the sled? I 'see' pack drive involved, definitely. And in my discussions with Kelpie-i I mentioned that IMO one drive can be linked or motivate the involvement of other drives (sometimes prey). But I'm not 'seeing' prey drive being the instinctive drive for which these dogs are chosen for their work. When my own boy does zoomies around the backyard, I don't recognise "prey drive" being the motivation of it. I see it as a dog merely needing to stretch his legs and enjoy the 'lark' of dancing with the wind . So could 'play' drive be a component of the sled dog's motivation? I'm open to further discussion on it though, so would enjoy some explanation that might make me realise I am off the mark. Edited : Because I had another thought. :D Edited February 7, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) Tony have you actually seen a sled dog race such as the Iditarod? Have you actually watched the pace and manner in which these dogs move? Like I said, not everything a dog does centres around predatory drive and survival, especially NOT our modern day dog of today. You will have to give me a whopping explanation as to how this is prey drive...and I don't mean going into things like comparing them to bloodhounds or the fact that they are running, since they are not! Also, please provide relevant details on how predatory drive can be "switched on" without a key impulse present or a predatory drive satisfaction at the end. I'm all ears! Edited February 7, 2009 by Kelpie-i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 (edited) Hey K-i ... I think 'survival' might be part of it, but as an unconscious thought. Something they do even though they may not consciously realise why they do it. Reaching back to "ancient instinct" as we were discussing by telephone earlier today. Otherwise, why (if our theory is correct) would "migratory drift" have a bearing or influence on the dogs' behaviour if not somehow relating way back to "survival"? We're talking instinct here, and instinct directly relates to survival, whether that is pre-meditated or not. Edited February 7, 2009 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Agree Erny, it is based on the survival of the pack since the pack migrates to where food is more plentiful. There are plenty of other animals who migrate in groups in the same manner. But to say that our modern day sled dog teams are looking at survival tactics is not correct as you already know. I believe the entire act of migrating is based on pack related behaviour and has nothing to do with predatory drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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