Fudo Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 Hi all. I am going to preface this with an apology as it will be a long post. Also, I am going to send the email to the trainer we did general obedience with and Fudo's breeder as I have respect for them. I understand that people might be unwilling to provide advice on this topic and just say "see a behaviourist"; which I might just do, but I want to get other opinions first. OK.... This afternoon something happened that I'm not sure how to handle. We were walking and a lab came reasonably close to us (the owner made a berth so that the dogs couldn't get close to each other) and both dogs gave each other the eye and snarled. No big deal. But when I told Fudo to sit and he didn't, I told him again. When he still didn't, I grabbed his collar to lift and his rump to push and he turned and growled at me. I immediately let go and gave a jerk correction on the lead and said "sit" in my firmest voice. He then sat, but growled while doing so and wouldn't take his eyes off me. By this time the other dog had passed us. I then put Fudo through several sit, down, stay and heeling routines and he never missed a beat. Later on in the walk, we passed two swf's that began barking and lunging at us from half way up the road. Fudo started to pull at the lead and when I asked for a heel he growled again. Later still we approached another swf and well before the dog got to us, I put Fudo in a "down stay" and the other dog came within two metres of us and neither dog made any move toward the other. Any other time (before or since our walk this afternoon), he will do as I ask everytime. We also looked after my brother's (desexed) poodle cross this week and they were fine together - she is extremely submissive though. So, insofar as him growling at other dogs, it has only been when they have made some sort of move toward him (whether that be prolonged eye contact or lunging etc). I think that is part and parcel of owning a 19 month old entire male akita that is on the road to adulthood. I can handle that. But what about the growling at me business? Remembering that this is the first time it has occurred so I don't think any behaviours have become ingrained. Should I continue being firm? Is that one of those occasions when I should turn around, ignore him and give my attention to my partner who always walks with me? Or do I need to see a professional? Is getting him to "down stay" before we reach other dogs a good idea, or could that cause other problems down the track? Hoping you can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 Sounds like re-directed aggression to me but difficult to give a proper analysis without seeing it, although from what you describe it would ring true. Fighting fire with fire is not the answer when it comes to re-directed aggression as he will continue to escalate the aggression as you do yours. As you've probably guessed it, I would advise seeing a trainer/behaviourist who has experience in dealing with this sort of issue. Counter-conditioning is one solution here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 I agree with Kelpie i too. NILIF would be something you could start in the meantime though- may help a little and wouldn't do any harm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 What Cosmolo said...NILIF is a good basic foundation grounding for leadership. And on further thought, apart from the re-directed behaviour, it could also be a reprimand towards you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharna3 Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 Forgive my ignorance, but what does NILIF stand for ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 Yep agree with above, in the mean time maybe you could interupt the behavoiur before it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelpie-i Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 NILIF - Nothing In Life Is Free! You can google it and find some good information about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 (edited) See a good trainer. Correcting an aggressive dog can result in redirected aggression. Restraining an aggressive dog can result in barrier aggression. One thing I'd ask you to consider.. if your dog is reacting aggressively to the presence of other dogs, why do you want to place him in a position of greater threat. Asking for sits and downs makes your dog more vulnerable to the others. I'd ask for focus and create distance between you and the other dogs.. but see a decent trainer. Edited January 12, 2010 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 Agree with th experts and here- have a LINK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 I agree you do need a trainer but dont be too aggressive towards the dog - you are better turning round at the moment and 'come on!' dispell the anxiety to gain focus and calm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fudo Posted January 13, 2010 Author Share Posted January 13, 2010 Thank you for your replies eveyone. I have made contact with "the paw man" here in Brisbane but haven't yet received a reply. Does anyone have experience with his services? I will let you know how we get on if you are interested. NILIF is something that I used to do a lot. Now I really only practice it with food and getting in and out of the car. Until I hear from the trainer I guess NILIF is a good thing to go back to first principles with and apply to all situations. PF - Insofar as asking to "sit and down" when the other dog approached, I did that to demonstrate some level of control and authority. Also, I had read on here before that someone else had done it. That is one of the dangers of the internet I suppose; potentially applying unsolicited / un-researched / invalid techniques. From your response I take it that that was wrong? Your answer intimates that but you didn't provide an alternative. Thanks again everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Thank you for your replies eveyone. I have made contact with "the paw man" here in Brisbane but haven't yet received a reply. Does anyone have experience with his services? I will let you know how we get on if you are interested. NILIF is something that I used to do a lot. Now I really only practice it with food and getting in and out of the car. Until I hear from the trainer I guess NILIF is a good thing to go back to first principles with and apply to all situations. PF - Insofar as asking to "sit and down" when the other dog approached, I did that to demonstrate some level of control and authority. Also, I had read on here before that someone else had done it. That is one of the dangers of the internet I suppose; potentially applying unsolicited / un-researched / invalid techniques. From your response I take it that that was wrong? Your answer intimates that but you didn't provide an alternative. Thanks again everyone. Having not seen your dog, nor being a professional in the field, I'd not go so far as to say it was "wrong". Perhaps not the best idea though for purely practical reasons.. it allows the other dog to get closer to yours. You're entirely reliant on the other dog's owner to control it - and that doesn't always happen. If your dog is worried by other dogs, an increased position of vulnerability and the approach of the other dog will amplify that concern. If your dog is highly aroused by other dogs, forcing him into a static position and the approach of the other dog can be challenging in terms of controlling his arousal. I'm no expert but I've never seen aggression diffused or managed in this manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 (edited) Hope you have a good outcome after time with your chosen professional Edited January 13, 2010 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted January 14, 2010 Share Posted January 14, 2010 Akitas are kind of known as a dog that doesn't take any crap from anyone - dog or human. I've met a few dogs that grumble a lot. Especially when asked to do something they don't want to do. If my dogs don't want to do something, I generally try to figure out why. Could be that I'm asking too much of them, could be they are just being obnoxious. It's not something to ignore, but nor is it necessarily a threat. Some dogs would just like you to know that they are not keen on this thing you have told them to do, although they'll do it anyway. Have you spoken to his breeder? I've found the few Akita breeders I've met to be very sensible about their dogs' tendancy to be more than a handful in some circumstances. I was told by a few that it's all in the way you react and that problematic Akitas are usually being handled by nervous people. If you are confident, they will be confident and you're unlikely to get any trouble. That's what I was told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark angel Posted January 15, 2010 Share Posted January 15, 2010 My opinion is that once the dog has already growled at the other dog his mindset has already changed for the worse.The getting to sit after the dog has growled is maybe a little too late.That is why there is the redirected aggression.Id prefer to see your dog in a drop position rather than a sit or maybe redirect your dog ..turn the other way praise him keep him attentive to you as you walk away from the other dog.Do not try to pat him and calm him down if he growls.It only will reinforce it..patting and talking to him = praise. you dont want that when hes growling or eyeballing the other dog.Does he do this with all dogs or only a chosen few? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fudo Posted January 17, 2010 Author Share Posted January 17, 2010 We are booked in to see our trainer next week for him to observe us and offer solutions. Dark Angel - No, he is generally happy to leave other dogs alone. If they are interested to have a sniff etc, he is tolerant of that and will return the introduction. If the other dog does any sort of posturing he will return in kind; the bigger the other dog, the bigger the response. What I mean by that is, if it is a swf lunging toward him and barking, he will just strain at the end of the lead toward the other dog. If it is a large dog lunging and barking he will strain at the lead and growl. I genrally counter this with a tight lead and keep walking. On this particular day, we were stopped for a drink, so rather than interrupt our drink, I asked for a sit. He certainly doesn't get praised (even indirectly with encouraging or soothing talk) when he does this! When he did sit after correction, he growled and looked at me. He then stopped growling, looked back to the other dog (that was now perhaps 5 metres distant), and focussed on the dog again. I have little experience with this (thats why I'm seeking advice), but I tend to agree with your beliefs / theories / analysis of the situation. It also fits with our trainers belief (phone advice), and they way I have interpreted what others said above. Hopefully we'll find out some more certainty when we see our trainer next week. Corvus - Yep, have spoken to his breeder. She didn't have much to offer except to ensure that we were strong leaders of Fudo. I really don't think that is an issue. In all other respects my partner and I consider him to be a model dog. Very obedient (to both of us), tolerant of others (including the sometimes over enthusiastic affections of our toddler and his friends) and laid back. We often recieve compliments from friends and strangers regarding his good behaviour, good nature and good (loose lead) walking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fudo Posted January 23, 2010 Author Share Posted January 23, 2010 Hello Just an update for those that are interested. Went to see our trainer today (didn't go with the Paw Man; PM if you want to know why). The trainer was very happy with Fudo's obedience, his reaction to other dogs and the way I handled him. I am stoked. Regarding the reason for my original post, there was something that I didn't mention because I didn't think it was significant until later. When the other dog approached Fudo, Fudo was half way through a crap and the other dog approached from behind and began to growl. Fudo then had to choke it off and turn toward the other dog. The trainer feels that this was significant, and that insofar as growling at me, he was still actually growling at the other dog, I just hadn't diverted his attention towards me fully, he was still focussed on the other dog. We demonstrated at training today that Fudo is completely calm around other dogs that are also calm and unruffled; it is those that are barking / jumping / lunging towards him that he shows any interest in. We had other dogs approach and walk a circle around Fudo within one or two feet of us and Fudo made no attempt to move or make a sound. So, I'm happy. Thanks to those that provided advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted January 23, 2010 Share Posted January 23, 2010 So- I hope the trainer has now given you the 'tools' to recognise and defuse any more redirected aggression :D keep up the good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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