Tansy Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 I have been thinking about a disaster litter we had last year, and wonder if anyone has had the same but with a better outcome. Bitch had a premature placental separation (indicated by a dark green discharge) at day 55. Obviously we were losing a puppy, so off to the vet. Bitch had an open cervix but no other signs of labour (no panting, straining etc). An ultrasound showed pups with heartbeats, but they weren’t as strong closer to the dead pup. We decided to do a c section in an attempt to get out some live (but very prem) babies, but sadly none were viable. Likely she took from the second mating, so was more like 53 days. I wonder if anyone has experienced a similar issue (placental separation pre-term), and lost that pup, but managed to hang onto the rest of the litter? I wonder if we should have let things progress a few more days (monitoring the bitch) and seen if we could have gotten the other pups further along in their gestation, or if once things have started there is no going back, and it could have put not just the pups but the bitch at risk. I was particularly concerned that there seemed to be no indication that the bitch was actually going to pass the dead pup. I wouldn't choose to unnecessarily risk a bitch for the sake of puppies. Of course it is all very well with the benefit of hindsight to ask ‘what if?’, but I would be interested in other experiences in case I come across this again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nynka Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 I've had the same experience, the other pups didn't survive either. With medication we were able to keep the bitch "ok" and hoped that the pups would make it. Their heartbeats stopped over time. In the end she delivered on the due date - all the puppies but they had died. I guess logic would tell you that there is a possibility of surviving puppies if you are able to keep the infection under control and it doesn't affect those within the uterus. But, it's not a great environment to support life. It's definitely a catch 22 situation. Premmie whelps don't survive, so provided it's safe for the Mum trying to control the infection is the only option, with close monitoring of course. I'd try that rather than a C section unless you were absolutely sure of gestation / ovulation/fertilisation timing from progesterone levels at time of mating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ellz Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 No, but my recent Stafford litter (they're 11 weeks old now) came VERY close. Bitch went into labour on Day 58 from her first mating and had a c-section early on Day 59. All of the placentas had started to separate and 2 of the puppies had meconium in their sacs. 2 of the puppies also had double sacs so conceivably my litter of 9 COULD have been a litter of 11. The vet commented that if I had waited until the next day, or even a couple more hours I would probably have no puppies at all instead of 9 healthy squirmers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tansy Posted February 10, 2010 Author Share Posted February 10, 2010 I've had the same experience, the other pups didn't survive either. With medication we were able to keep the bitch "ok" and hoped that the pups would make it. Their heartbeats stopped over time. In the end she delivered on the due date - all the puppies but they had died. Thanks for the response nynka. So, different approach but same lousy outcome. I googled and read books for hours at the time (post the event) and all I could find was advice to get to the vet for a probable c section when you see the green discharge, which is fine, but those recommendations were based on bitches being at term. I couldn't find much on pre-term. Can I ask if you ever mated that girl again and the outcome? This is why I am revisiting this in my head, I'm at the stage where I am thinking about what to do with this girl. On the downside is the whelping issue from last time, on the upside, she is the best I have ever had. My head says not to do it, but heart says I should give it one more shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 Last year I had a girl have a bit of an attempt and whelping 6 dyas early from first mating. Bit of panting, bit of mild contractions. Then the meconium discharge. Had caesar, first pup dead and very maserated. Next 2 alive, next one dead and starting maserate, next 2 alive but one very flat. Flat one died about 2 hours after birth. Others survived 1 week tube feed. Maybe survived if weatehr had been better and they had had antibiotics. They may have been froma later mating as they looked quite prem. Obviously the dead ones caused the early labour and because the first one was dead no descent down birth canal. I will mate her again as she has had successfully litters in the past. I belive it just happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pisces730 Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Ive just had a litter of 3 pups. One died within 48hrs presumambly 'fading puppy' and the second died with the same symptoms at 5 days even with vet intervention antiotics, supp feed hydration etc . THe third was a strong healthy boy & he started to go downhill on day 7 gave him antibiotics and supp feeding him as Mum has all bar lost her milk, he had an eye infection that only came up 2 days ago, today it has gone down to normal. When the pups were born there were 2 out of 3 placentas with muconioum (sp?) in them. Still not sure why this all happened.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordogs Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 Sorry for your losses, Lat year I had a bitch day 56 she had a fever, temp of 41.0. She was checked by my vet at 6pm and he said all appeared fine -- good heart beats and mum not in distress, by 12 am I knew that she was early stage labour -- She was not having any contractions and so I was not too worried but I was hoping that she would not deliver for another day or so --- She delivered first puppy at 8.45 am that same day the puppy was very hard to get going and I was sure that she would not survive, 2nd puppy was alive but did not survive, 3rd puppy still born, 4th puppy also still born 5th puppy was detached and the sac was full of faeces, (which the puppy had inhaled and digested) the sac was black and shriveled up ( I believe that this puppy was the reason for both the high temp and early delivery ). I phoned my vet, in a high state of distress and was advised to administer Oxytocin and just to get the remaining puppies out ASAP. This is the only reason that we ended up with 4 live screaming puppies. Her previous litter was 7 puppies all fine. I do not know if I will breed her again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted March 8, 2010 Share Posted March 8, 2010 (edited) I have been thinking about a disaster litter we had last year, and wonder if anyone has had the same but with a better outcome.Bitch had a premature placental separation (indicated by a dark green discharge) at day 55. Obviously we were losing a puppy, so off to the vet. Bitch had an open cervix but no other signs of labour (no panting, straining etc). An ultrasound showed pups with heartbeats, but they weren’t as strong closer to the dead pup. We decided to do a c section in an attempt to get out some live (but very prem) babies, but sadly none were viable. Likely she took from the second mating, so was more like 53 days. I wonder if anyone has experienced a similar issue (placental separation pre-term), and lost that pup, but managed to hang onto the rest of the litter? I wonder if we should have let things progress a few more days (monitoring the bitch) and seen if we could have gotten the other pups further along in their gestation, or if once things have started there is no going back, and it could have put not just the pups but the bitch at risk. I was particularly concerned that there seemed to be no indication that the bitch was actually going to pass the dead pup. I wouldn't choose to unnecessarily risk a bitch for the sake of puppies. Of course it is all very well with the benefit of hindsight to ask ‘what if?’, but I would be interested in other experiences in case I come across this again. Tansy do you know why the bitch did this? Was there any infection or other causes? Did you check her progesterone level? Edited March 8, 2010 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tansy Posted March 9, 2010 Author Share Posted March 9, 2010 (edited) Tansy do you know why the bitch did this? Was there any infection or other causes? Did you check her progesterone level? No idea I'm afraid. She seemed perfectly normally, ate breakfast in the morning and didn't have any discharge. It was early afternoon when I noticed the green/black discharge and straight to the vets. There hadn't been anything 'odd' about her pregnancy at all. This was her first pregnancy. If I do mate her again I think we will be doing regular monitoring of prog levels. It may just have been 'one of those things', but I would prefer to get regular prog testing done than lose an entire litter again :-( Her mother didn't have any whelping problems, and a litter sister (owned by some one else) also had no whelping issues. I just don't know if I will mate her again or not. She wasn't the easiest to get into whelp in the first place, but if I got a puppy from her that was even in the same ballpark as her quality wise I would be over the moon. ETA - no, at the time we didn't check her prog levels. Edited March 9, 2010 by Tansy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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