A Small Tiff In The Off-leash Park

[labsrule]

Why did I know that this thread would ultimately turn into a Lab Bashing Thread

SO SO TEDIOUS YET AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mrs T - get the thread closed

Edited May 6, 2010 by labsrule

[megan_]

Why did I know that thread would ultimately turn into a Lab Bashing Thread

SO SO TEDIOUS YET AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mrs T - get the thread closed

labsrule - the recent posts were responding to a poster (a lab owner) saying that ALL labs were friendly and NONE were EVER aggressive.

People were pointing out that this wasn't true and SOME labs are aggressive - like SOME dogs are in all breeds.

When I saw a lab owner had posted I thought "hoorah, a lab owner is going to set this person straight and say that they have to socialise their lab etc, just like you need to do with every other dog".

Petty it wasn't so.

Why is pointing out the obvious seen as lab bashing????????

[Just love my dogs!]

Why did I know that thread would ultimately turn into a Lab Bashing Thread

SO SO TEDIOUS YET AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mrs T - get the thread closed

labsrule - the recent posts were responding to a poster (a lab owner) saying that ALL labs were friendly and NONE were EVER aggressive.

People were pointing out that this wasn't true and SOME labs are aggressive - like SOME dogs are in all breeds.

When I saw a lab owner had posted I thought "hoorah, a lab owner is going to set this person straight and say that they have to socialise their lab etc, just like you need to do with every other dog".

Petty it wasn't so.

Why is pointing out the obvious seen as lab bashing????????

I don't remember saying ALL labs were friendly and I certainly never said NONE were EVER aggressive.

I said who ever heard of an aggreesive lab?

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

According to this one Page 7 and 8 -

Labradors the most popular breed registered. Attack at a rate of 0.03%

Labrador cross breeds (labradoodles?) attack at twice that rate.

But given labradors have been attacking at the rate of nearly 20 per quarter, the annual rate has gone up by times 5 since mandatory reporting was brought in. As best I can tell.

http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlghome/docu...June%202005.pdf

Page 2 of this one puts Labs in the top 20 of dog attacks by breed.

http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlghome/docu...-%202009-10.pdf

There were 19 attacks reported involving Labradors.

Labradors don't have to bite to damage people either, their wrecking ball ways damage many a person who is skittled completely by an out of control labrador.

[Just love my dogs!]

According to this one Page 7 and 8 -

Labradors the most popular breed registered. Attack at a rate of 0.03%

Labrador cross breeds (labradoodles?) attack at twice that rate.

But given labradors have been attacking at the rate of nearly 20 per quarter, the annual rate has gone up by times 5 since mandatory reporting was brought in. As best I can tell.

http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlghome/docu...June%202005.pdf

Page 2 of this one puts Labs in the top 20 of dog attacks by breed.

http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlghome/docu...-%202009-10.pdf

There were 19 attacks reported involving Labradors.

Labradors don't have to bite to damage people either, their wrecking ball ways damage many a person who is skittled completely by an out of control labrador.

0.03% is a very low number. Since labradors are one of the most popular breeds, there are many more of them out there. This to me says, overall, they aren't an aggressive breed.

[Nevafollo]

According to this one Page 7 and 8 -

Labradors the most popular breed registered. Attack at a rate of 0.03%

Labrador cross breeds (labradoodles?) attack at twice that rate.

But given labradors have been attacking at the rate of nearly 20 per quarter, the annual rate has gone up by times 5 since mandatory reporting was brought in. As best I can tell.

http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlghome/docu...June%202005.pdf

Page 2 of this one puts Labs in the top 20 of dog attacks by breed.

http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlghome/docu...-%202009-10.pdf

There were 19 attacks reported involving Labradors.

Labradors don't have to bite to damage people either, their wrecking ball ways damage many a person who is skittled completely by an out of control labrador.

Yes but labs arnt the only breed that can skittle a person or a dog, (any large full of energy dog can do that) my pointer is lovely and not agressive in anyway but bloody hel she can bounce! This is why I dont allow her to be offlead because I KNOW i cant be incontroll of her bouncing!!!

I dont see how pointing out that yes labs CAN be agressive is Lab bashing I think some are being abit sensative but I totally get it I can be very sensitive about my breeds also its just best to have an open mind and stating things like

Ha ha ha Who ever heard of an aggressive or dangerous labrador!?!

and

I'm deadly serious! Who could be scared of a labrador?! ;) They're known as the world's friendliest and most family orientated dog! I would never cross the street if I see a labrador on a leash. If I see a little yappy thing, then I cross the street!

is just stupid!

[labsrule]

Why did I know that thread would ultimately turn into a Lab Bashing Thread ;)

SO SO TEDIOUS YET AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mrs T - get the thread closed

labsrule - the recent posts were responding to a poster (a lab owner) saying that ALL labs were friendly and NONE were EVER aggressive.

People were pointing out that this wasn't true and SOME labs are aggressive - like SOME dogs are in all breeds.

When I saw a lab owner had posted I thought "hoorah, a lab owner is going to set this person straight and say that they have to socialise their lab etc, just like you need to do with every other dog".

Petty it wasn't so.

Why is pointing out the obvious seen as lab bashing????????

Yes this poster's comments were naive, but it didn't take long before the lab bashers started coming in an regaling their stories of dogs being attacked by Labs. I could have countered that with my own story about one of my labs being attacked by a vicious popular breed also and the countless times my dogs have been harrassed by yapping, snapping little bastards, but I didn't Neither did a lot of lab owners on this forum who have had their labs attacked, jumped on, confronted and harrassed by other breeds Of course it it always the poor Labs that come in for so much criticism so often, it is rather tiring

[mrs tornsocks]

Thanks heaps everyone for all the input, some great posts here !

I may have to ask to have a thread I started closed. It's disappointing, exciting, yet somehow quite strangely flattering !!!

As I said, I really really appreciate and take on board all the good and wise advice here. I have learnt alot in a very short space of time and some new behaviours of my own, as I continue to improve Archie's.

I hereby would like to exercise my option as the OP and exorcise any human growling that may have found its way into the thread.

So I appeal to you DOLers one and all - this is a genuine request to, as someone posted earlier, live and let live.

Of course we have different opinions to each other, of course some of us are more experienced dog owners/trainers etc than others. Either way, may I suggest those who disagree with each other, whether 'right' or 'wrong' maybe take it off line or PM to thrash it out ? Or just relax and have a nice evening ! It really does end up becoming a bit of a tit for tat with no-one feeling very good or satisfied in the end.

Altogether now ;)

Edited May 6, 2010 by mrs tornsocks

[Just love my dogs!]

Thanks heaps everyone for all the input, some great posts here !

I may have to ask to have a thread I started closed. It's disappointing, exciting, yet somehow quite strangely flattering !!!

As I said, I really really appreciate and take on board all the good and wise advice here. I have learnt alot in a very short space of time and some new behaviours of my own, as I continue to improve Archie's.

I hereby would like to exercise my option as the OP and exorcise any human growling that may have found its way into the thread.

So I appeal to you DOLers one and all - this is a genuine request to, as someone posted earlier, live and let live.

Of course we have different opinions to each other, of course some of us are more experienced dog owners/trainers etc than others. Either way, may I suggest those who disagree with each other, whether 'right' or 'wrong' maybe take it off line or PM to thrash it out ? Or just relax and have a nice evening ! It really does end up becoming a bit of a tit for tat with no-one feeling very good or satisfied in the end.

Altogether now

Well said. I'm not going to offer any more of my opinions. I respect that people disagree with my opinions and that's fine. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

[Paulp]

Yes but labs arnt the only breed that can skittle a person or a dog, (any large full of energy dog can do that) my pointer is lovely and not agressive in anyway but bloody hel she can bounce! This is why I dont allow her to be offlead because I KNOW i cant be incontroll of her bouncing!!!

At one stage my lab figured out that banging the back of a persons knees as he ran past at full tilt would collapse the said person like a deck of cards, I had to put a stop to that very quickly before he hurt somebody!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Live and let live.

That would be nice.

I'd be happy if all the bouncy dogs of this world didn't bounce on me and my dog without invitation.

[Just love my dogs!]

Live and let live.

That would be nice.

I'd be happy if all the bouncy dogs of this world didn't bounce on me and my dog without invitation.

Well I PROMISE that I'll never let my large dogs do that.

[Erny]

As I said, I really really appreciate and take on board all the good and wise advice here. I have learnt alot in a very short space of time and some new behaviours of my own, as I continue to improve Archie's.

You are to be commended, Mrs Tornsocks (no prizes for guessing how come you thought up THAT as your DOL name ? ). Many people start off these sort of threads only wanting to hear murmers of support, and not contradiction. You have taken all the comments not only in your stride, but on board. You are obviously a conscientious dog owner in terms of your dog's behaviour - whether you think it right behaviour or wrong behaviour, is beside the point. You are responsible enough to be able to hear/read different opinions and take them on as constructive points.

As far as aggressive dogs are concerned, I promise everyone here that there would be a story that could be recounted about any and every dog breed alive that had one or more of its kind exhibit aberrant behaviour. It is not about breed. It's about deed. And that most often (but not always) stems from the responsibility of the person who owns the dog or who at least owned the dog at some stage. This thread isn't about breed specific anything. It is about the people at dog parks and what their expectations are or should be.

Personally, I think the level of intelligence towards responsible and respectful behaviour, both over their own dogs and towards others, is also commendable and it is refreshing to see that shine .

[mrs tornsocks]

[magnet]

Awwwwww. I'm melting!

[labsrule]

[Greytmate]

I think by naming labs as a "dangerous" dog for your old boy is being a bit unfair, ALL of the large breed dogs would be a danger for him then such as ridgebacks, great danes, boxers, they are all large and high energy. The only reason that labs get picked on is that there are so many of them around. Personally if i had an old dog I would never take them to an off lead park because accidents do happen , a dog could be running for his own ball and step on your oldie by mistake.

It isn't the size of the dog that makes it dangerous, it is how the dog acts.

There are many large breeds that tend to be cautious in their approach to other dogs and things in general, and then there are breeds like SBT and labs that tend to be less cautious about the consequences of them barging right into a situation.

It isn't friendliness. A friendly dog can stand right back and communicate its intent from a friendly distance.

The over enthusiasm from some dogs is challenging behaviour, and it tends to be stronger in certain breeds. Lab people may be annoyed that their breed is being 'bashed' in this thread, but undesirable behaviour needs to be recognised. Not labelled as "friendly" or dismissed as something all other large dogs naturally tend to do. Not all large dog breeds tend to be like this.

[Lady Flying Furball]

I have a papillon puppy (6 mths) who unfortunately barks and growls in fear at dogs who are bigger than her, generally if they are off lead and approaching. (She is scared of everything including her own shadow!) It is something I am working on with her to try and overcome. I always have her on lead and will always ask to approach other dogs on lead who seem 'calm' to try and get her used to large dogs.

I also always get the line 'don't worry they're friendly' as numerous large dog bounds up to us off lead. The problem is mine isn't! And I am conscious of the fact that her demeanour/aggression may trigger an unpleasant reaction in the larger dog. At 2.8kg she would have no hope of defending herself.

It makes me really reluctant to walk her when I know that there is going to be other dogs around at the park, which I feel is compounding her socialisation problem. Much easier walking her after dark when the park is deserted, than trying to avoid all the offlead dogs.

KG, I totally relate and have had the same challenge with my papillon boy... I had to really take responsibility in where I took him at a certain stage, avoided other walkers and dogs for a few months... Now it is much better and mild as anything, but he still makes noises at other dogs. It is hard when people make offhand comments about SWF or yapping little dogs in such disparaging tones as seen in this thread.

[Lady Flying Furball]

Yes you did you little chocolato fido...naughty

ETA: ...and that Humpty fellow behind you looks like trouble too

Edited May 6, 2010 by FlyingFurball

[Hetzer]

Who knows what other factors were involved in this one example. In nature there's a mechanism of correction in that if you're rude or aggressive, you'll be dissuaded from that sort of behavior one way or another. The whole purpose of play in any specie, including humans, is to create an understanding of behavioral protocols. I know humans love to think they're super special and know best, but the natural world has done fine for millions of years without human orchestration and will continue to do so long after we're gone.

Unfortunately, Hetzer, the dogs who live with us in our human 'civilised' world aren't "in nature". They don't have the daily freedoms they used to have, to wander and mix freely with other dogs as they used to in my childhood days, to self socialise. And what that means is that there are many dogs who aren't always 'stable' in themselves, so to allow your dog to wander freely using off-lead parks for the purpose is not something that will assure you your dog will learn appropriately or fairly or sufficiently, because those dogs themselves have not necessarily learnt appropriately or fairly or sufficiently. By comparison to the UK, for example, our dogs aren't as settled as theirs seem to be (generally speaking). In contrast, our society regards dogs in general as something that is anti-social to be around. In the UK, they have the freedom to travel and mix with humans in their day to day lives outside of their homes. Here, we've battled laws that suggest they shouldn't be in outdoor cafes for fear of a dog hair floating and making its way over to someone who might be eating. , to name just one.

Here, the push seems to be to isolate the dogs more and more from 'life', yet somehow miraculously expect the dogs to be completely comfortable with 'life'. Which means that after generations of dogs not learning well enough themselves, we have many enough who are bad teachers.

So, to suggest (which I think you were) that it is a better thing to let your dog run up to other dogs (whether that be because you allow them to or whether that be because you have no control to stop it) ...... I'm afraid I can't agree.

Hi Erny I've had a think about what you wrote and I you're right. I guess a dog park can be a bit like a prison yard on occasion where you don't want your dog, especially a younger impressionable one, to be at the mercy of bullying dogs of unknown psychology. As Kavik mentioned to me, the element of human control and supervision is important. However in off-leash zones, it's hard to please everyone all the time. In such a zone, its a bit unrealistic to expect that your dog will not be approached by another dog. That's why, in this threads example, I find the SWF owner's comments and attitude really irritating. Given the choice, I'd much rather have a playful Lab run up to say Hi than a fear-aggressive SWF and human combo.