Question For Behaviourists Please

[ninahartland]

There's something going on with my pack that I cant quite figure out and would appreciate some ideas.

One of the shepherds (male,3 years, desexed) submissively urinates when the wolfhound (male, 4 years,superlorin implant )goes near him. This happened last year for a while, then stopped for a few months but is now getting worse again. My other shep seems to be telling him off now too, though he only urinates aroung wolfie.

There's no growling or lip lifting going on, wolfie only has to stand near him and he pees.

He's definately the lowest of the pack and must give off a fear that they dont like.

My question is what can I do about it? Dont like to think of him living in constant fear .They've never had a fight or anything to make him scared in the first place and he will even go to Rileys food bowl and help himself and Riley does nothing.

Any ideas anyone?

[corvus]

Mysterious. Is there any chance he's being picked on when you're not around? How confident is he away from the other dogs?

[Dory the Doted One]

When was the superlorin implant implanted?

How do you know it is submissive peeing? What other body postures accompany this action?

Are there any other events either in your life, in your backyard or in your neighbours backyard that coincides with the change?

And I would still be checking for any infection or inflammation to rule out a phyiscal cause of the behaviour.

[ninahartland]

Mysterious. Is there any chance he's being picked on when you're not around? How confident is he away from the other dogs?

He's not usually away from the others much, sometimes I'll take just the 2 sheps out and he's just a usual dog.

I'm around most of the time (carer for elderly mum) so if I go out shopping etc its no more than a couple of hours so there's always someone around. Even when they're out in the garden I see him hiding under the bushes sometimes to get away from Riley and all Riley does is walking close to him.

[ninahartland]

When was the superlorin implant implanted?

How do you know it is submissive peeing? What other body postures accompany this action?

Are there any other events either in your life, in your backyard or in your neighbours backyard that coincides with the change?

And I would still be checking for any infection or inflammation to rule out a phyiscal cause of the behaviour.

Have just had the superlorin done again last week in case it was that wearing off (he's had 2 before though) and this has been going on for quite some time, just seems to be getting worse now.

Its definately submissive peeing, all the other body postures are happening too....low down, ears back, submissive licking etc

No, no other changes at all. Had a foster leave about a month ago, but I'm sure thats nothing to do with it as I usually have a foster coming and going.

[Monah]

Hey Nina.

Is Gus' leg ok? If it's something complicated the other boys may have picked up on it??

No idea really, he is the underdog, but I can't see why, I think he was before he was desexed too.

,

I'm just doing a guessing game, but could Riley have 'matured' in the last 12 months? I know mine matured rather late, Fifi would have the knowledge :D

It will be hard for anyone to work out without seeing them all together. And although I do see them, I am USELESS! as it's just as confusing to me as it is to you. :D

Poor baby, he is such a lovely lovely boy, obviously very anxious about something. I'll come out for a cuddle!!!

PM the wolfie experts and there is an excellent behaviourist I have used if you need to see someone.

I wonder if Joe should have the snip? or if the main problem is Riley? Bloody dogs!!!!!!! :D

I can also attest that these dogs are never alone, always someone home, so whatever is going on is very subtle. They are ALWAYS with a human or two

[Dory the Doted One]

I wouldn't discount the changes of the foster leaving as a cause. Did he seem to form a bond with the foster. Each dog that comes and goes will create a ripple effect with the existing dogs and their interactions. Just a thought.

[ninahartland]

Monah....there's never been anything wrong with Gus's leg,lol, you must be getting confused in your old age :D

Joe had the snip ages ago too.

You could be right about the maturing I suppose, Riley's obviously the top dog and doesn't have to do anything to freak Gus out apart from stand near him!!

Come round for coffee and cuddles anytime :D

Dory...I'm pretty sure it hasn't got anything to do with the foster going, as I said, they are used to fosters coming and going and he didn't form a particular attachment to the last one.

Thanks for the input guys :D

[Aidan3]

I'm definitely not saying this is the cause but it bears consideration, sometimes one dog will find ways to keep the peace between other dogs in a group. If you took him out of the picture, maybe some other tension might become evident?

[corvus]

Mysterious. Is there any chance he's being picked on when you're not around? How confident is he away from the other dogs?

He's not usually away from the others much, sometimes I'll take just the 2 sheps out and he's just a usual dog.

I'm around most of the time (carer for elderly mum) so if I go out shopping etc its no more than a couple of hours so there's always someone around. Even when they're out in the garden I see him hiding under the bushes sometimes to get away from Riley and all Riley does is walking close to him.

What happens when he's out with you and Riley? What happens when he's at home without Riley? If it were me, I'd be removing dogs from the equation to try to isolate exactly what mix of dogs is causing the tension. Is it just Riley, or does it happen when Riley isn't there as well? Does it happen when the other shepherd is not there? Does it happen if you're out of the yard with all of them? If you can figure out who it happens around and in what circumstances you might be several steps closer to figuring out what the underlying problem is.

[Nekhbet]

sounds like very bad nerve. He's got a character flaw the other dogs are not happy with obviously and he's so submissive he's probably giving off abnormal signals to the other dogs which puts them on edge. Rileys obviously a lot of man for him to handle.

My question is what can I do about it? Dont like to think of him living in constant fear .They've never had a fight or anything to make him scared in the first place and he will even go to Rileys food bowl and help himself and Riley does nothing.

Why are your dogs able to access each others resources, especially food. You're then putting pack behaviour totally in their hands with this. Everyone eats out of their own bowl and touch no one elses, if you have to tether them then do it.

There doesnt have to be fighting. Posturing and a quick glare can be enough to make a weak willed dog piss itself. What was he like as a pup, very submissive? Did he exhibit similar behaviour and you find it returned during hormonal periods? Also how young was he desexed, he may have been a low testosterone dog in the first place and now he never really 'grew up' if you get my drift.

[ninahartland]

Aidan2...you could be right but there's really no way I can test this theory, I dont have kennels to separate, they're all house dogs.

Corvus...I'd say the tension is definately coming from Riley. The two of them were outside on the deck last night, heard a bit of clattering going on and Gus was trying to hide under the table so I'd say Riley is communicating something to him, but it must be so subtle cos I sure cant figure it out. Joe (other shep ) tells him off sometimes too for just walking in the door!! He doesn't pee around Joe though, only Riley.

I know they dont like the weak ones in the pack and its natures way to ensure the survival of the pack, but they're not in the wild,lol and poor Gus cant help being a softie and if Gus is so scared of him why does he stick his head in Rileys dinner!! Riley will just walk away when he does this. Bloody dogs!! ;)

[ninahartland]

sounds like very bad nerve. He's got a character flaw the other dogs are not happy with obviously and he's so submissive he's probably giving off abnormal signals to the other dogs which puts them on edge. Rileys obviously a lot of man for him to handle.

My question is what can I do about it? Dont like to think of him living in constant fear .They've never had a fight or anything to make him scared in the first place and he will even go to Rileys food bowl and help himself and Riley does nothing.

Why are your dogs able to access each others resources, especially food. You're then putting pack behaviour totally in their hands with this. Everyone eats out of their own bowl and touch no one elses, if you have to tether them then do it.

There doesnt have to be fighting. Posturing and a quick glare can be enough to make a weak willed dog piss itself. What was he like as a pup, very submissive? Did he exhibit similar behaviour and you find it returned during hormonal periods? Also how young was he desexed, he may have been a low testosterone dog in the first place and now he never really 'grew up' if you get my drift.

Yep I think thats it Nekhbet, they dont like his weak energy he's giving off

He's not allowed to go to anyone else's dishes till they've finished, none of them are, just that a couple of times I haven't been there all the time and just caught him going to Rileys which you wouldn't think he would do if scared of him.

He's always been submissive even as a pup, was only desexed last year though (at 2 years ), seems to be worse since then come to think of it.

[Monah]

I'm definitely not saying this is the cause but it bears consideration, sometimes one dog will find ways to keep the peace between other dogs in a group. If you took him out of the picture, maybe some other tension might become evident?

He may be a buffer between Joe and Riley.??

I dont know.

Joe does tell the others off when he wants to.

Nina, sorry I thought Gus had a sore leg or muscle or something last time I saw him?? Probably have him mixed up with another one!!

This is awfully complex. With such large powerful dogs maybe an expert is needed at the house? Especially seeing as you are going away later on.

I'd really hate to see one of them hurt.

Should be able to get there tomorrow! I'll ring thoughxxxxxx

Gus would be perfect for me, we could be soft soaks together! He is such a lovely lovely boy!

[corvus]

sounds like very bad nerve. He's got a character flaw the other dogs are not happy with obviously and he's so submissive he's probably giving off abnormal signals to the other dogs which puts them on edge. Rileys obviously a lot of man for him to handle.

I wish that people would stop pronouncing dogs as having "bad nerve". It's not a character flaw. There are good reasons to be shy or cautious and every wild population has its share of shy individuals. They are needed. They are the ones that don't get bitten by snakes, learn the first time that the black and yellow froggy makes you feel sick, and are first to dive for cover when the cranky bull moose comes tramping through. They are the pups that stay at the back of the den in the smallest, darkest spot they can find when a rival predator comes by. Shy and bold animals do live in groups in perfect harmony, and the bold ones don't even spend lots of their time beating up the shy ones (unless they are baboons). Bold animals take risks, cope badly with chronic stress, and don't make a lot of friends. Just because they happen to make great working dogs doesn't mean any dog that isn't bold has a character flaw, and it certainly doesn't mean that the shy dog must be giving off abnormal signals, thus putting bolder dogs on edge. That's leaping to conclusions. IMO a dog with "good character" ought to be able to handle an unusually submissive dog without excessively intimidating it. And that's assuming Gus is "unusually submissive" in the first place.

Harrumph.

To the OP, does it happen often enough that you can get someone to take a couple of the other dogs out of the yard for an hour or so and be confident you would see it if the tension was still there?

Could you try teaching Gus to associate Riley's proximity with good things from you rather than the secret stink eye from Riley? Perhaps try some confidence-building exercises such as targeting or increased NILIF?

[Nekhbet]

I wish that people would stop pronouncing dogs as having "bad nerve". It's not a character flaw.

Uh yes it is a character flaw when other dogs deem it as unnatural. There is a difference between being cautious and over-pronouncing behaviours - a dog that rolls over pissing on itself when a (for intensive purposes) castrated male dog comes near IS a flaw whether you chose to accept it or not. Weak nerve can makes a dogs life hard, training hard and frankly it is a BIG character flaw as it can push dogs into fear aggression and panic reactions (i'm not saying necessarily for your dog Nina, but in general). And sorry, but its common in GSDs, BCs, kelpies, and some other breeds. Hence the screaming and incessant whining some of them do. In the wild these dogs would probably starve to death as they are just so non-confrontational everyone steamrolls over them or they would be chased away to be a recluse.

IMO a dog with "good character" ought to be able to handle an unusually submissive dog without excessively intimidating it.

The wolfie is not pronouncly posturing yet the GSD is still producing over displays. Seems like the wolfies character is fine. The other GSD just sounds like he's jack of the stupid behaviour the other one is producing. My Malinois is the same, if a dog does stupid flattening rolling over type behaviour for no good reason she pokes them like 'come on now, get up, enough of that'

He's always been submissive even as a pup, was only desexed last year though (at 2 years ), seems to be worse since then come to think of it.

He probably would have paid to have been left entire. Is there any way to check testosterone and other hormone levels? I'd say most of it is genetic though if he's always been a submissive dog.

[Vickie]

sounds like very bad nerve. He's got a character flaw the other dogs are not happy with obviously and he's so submissive he's probably giving off abnormal signals to the other dogs which puts them on edge. Rileys obviously a lot of man for him to handle.

I wish that people would stop pronouncing dogs as having "bad nerve". It's not a character flaw. There are good reasons to be shy or cautious and every wild population has its share of shy individuals.

Corvus, good vs bad nerve is a little more complex than bold vs shy.

If Gus is out & about on his own, how to other dogs respond to him?

I would be looking to get someone in to help pretty soon. Trying to overcome the submission may help...or it may lead to something much worse.

PS Obviously I'm no behaviourist but do have some experience with dogs with bad nerve.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Vickie

[ninahartland]

Yes Corvus, could probably get someone to take 2 out for a while, just leave Gus and Riley here but I dont think it will make any difference to his fear of him.

Ok so what sort of confidence boosting things can I do? Have always done NILIF but what specific things can I do that he will associate with the problem.

I think I'll just be resigned to the fact that he's a big sook and thank dog for wooden floors

[Aidan]

I'm definitely not saying this is the cause but it bears consideration, sometimes one dog will find ways to keep the peace between other dogs in a group. If you took him out of the picture, maybe some other tension might become evident?

He may be a buffer between Joe and Riley.??

I dont know.

Joe does tell the others off when he wants to.

That's the sort of thing I'm referring to. I can only speculate, but it sounds like if Joe and Riley wanted to have it out they would probably end up in an untenable position. I wouldn't suggest taking him out of the picture to test this theory, but I would put together some sort of plan to reward deferential behaviour (from Joe and Riley) and make sure that Joe and Riley are both under good control.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Aidan

[corvus]

Uh yes it is a character flaw when other dogs deem it as unnatural.

How do you know other dogs deem it unnatural? How do you know that is what's happening in this case? You don't know what subtle signals Riley might be giving, and neither does the OP. Before declaring a dog's behaviour unnatural and therefore the cause of the problem, perhaps we ought to actually view it?

Don't get me wrong, there's shy dogs and there's pathologically anxious dogs. The latter is IMO a huge problem that essentially ruins an animal's life. That IS a character flaw and quite a serious one that will most likely shorten the dog's lifespan, either through chronic stress or through just being difficult for humans to manage. But there is no indication to me in what has been said that Gus is pathologically anxious or even approaching it. Just sounds to me like a sensitive dog. Let's not get ahead of ourselves is all I'm saying. Just because the dog is acting unusually submissive doesn't mean he is, or that he's upsetting the social order by being flakey. There could be all manner of subtle interactions going on that we don't know about.