Interesting Article: "why I Don't Believe In Clicker Training

[corvus]

Even discussing how ridiculous the article is gives it more attention than it deserves.

I thought it was interesting because it was so anti-clicker. All of the stuff I've been given/told has always been so pro-clicker so for me it was interesting to hear such strong opposition towards it. I don't agree because I actually like using the clicker but I always do like reading what The Other Side has to say even if I don't agree.

I don't really think it is The Other Side. There was a video floating around somewhere with Ian Dunbar making some interesting points against a purely operant conditioning approach to dog training. To me, that's more like The Other Side because they were points that were worth considering, things grounded in observation. IMO there is more to animals and our relationships with them than operant conditioning. There are some vehement anti-Behaviorism people out there, and in all honesty, I have my anti-Behaviorism moments despite basing the vast majority of my training in operant conditioning. I think there's value in discussing the things that operant conditioning doesn't really account for, like emotion, motivation and other learning theories, but there's no value in giving time to arguments that are not even real arguments. Anyone that says that kind of thing has already made up their mind and won't be convinced otherwise.

Here's the Dunbar clip: http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/science-...learning-theory

[spottychick]

I'm with corvus.

It isn't an example of "the other side" because he has no real understanding of what the "clicker training" side is. He's made up his own wildly inaccurate picture of what clicker training is, making sure it sounds REALLY bad, and then attacked the obvious problems he put into his made up version of clicker training. LMAO

So his opinion is completely flawed from the outset and therefore offers no benefit.

It's like me making stuff up and saying - "people who use a collar and lead on a dog are control freaks who only think of their dogs as robots with no feelings and no self-control. All it does is make the dog dependent on you for everything. THEREFORE no-one should use a collar and leash!!! Instead all dog owners should never take the dogs for walks and buy one of my fabulous dog walker machines to keep them exercised instead!"

A 'straw man' argument to make whatever you're pushing or selling sound legitimate and good.

[Aidan3]

I think there's value in discussing the things that operant conditioning doesn't really account for, like emotion, motivation and other learning theories,

Operant conditioning doesn't account for everything in behaviourism either. In my experience there are very few hardliners in any discipline, after all you're not really studying something if you are ignoring it's weaknesses. As you say, this person isn't really acknowledging weaknesses. In fact, many of the things he regarded as weaknesses were strengths, for e.g you can clicker train a dolphin in the open ocean.

[Simply Grand]

It's like me making stuff up and saying - "people who use a collar and lead on a dog are control freaks who only think of their dogs as robots with no feelings and no self-control. All it does is make the dog dependent on you for everything. THEREFORE no-one should use a collar and leash!!! Instead all dog owners should never take the dogs for walks and buy one of my fabulous dog walker machines to keep them exercised instead!"

Hmmm, spottychick I'm convinced by your excellent argument and would like to buy your dog walker machine!

I think there's value in discussing the things that operant conditioning doesn't really account for, like emotion, motivation and other learning theories,

Operant conditioning doesn't account for everything in behaviourism either. In my experience there are very few hardliners in any discipline, after all you're not really studying something if you are ignoring it's weaknesses. As you say, this person isn't really acknowledging weaknesses. In fact, many of the things he regarded as weaknesses were strengths, for e.g you can clicker train a dolphin in the open ocean.

And as far as I'm aware, operant conditioning theory never claims to explain ALL behaviour, does it? The opening statement claiming that it does and the random points listed after that lost me, I just skimmed the rest, which wasn't very convincing...

Still, an interesting topic to raise KTB!

[spottychick]

It's like me making stuff up and saying - "people who use a collar and lead on a dog are control freaks who only think of their dogs as robots with no feelings and no self-control. All it does is make the dog dependent on you for everything. THEREFORE no-one should use a collar and leash!!! Instead all dog owners should never take the dogs for walks and buy one of my fabulous dog walker machines to keep them exercised instead!"

Hmmm, spottychick I'm convinced by your excellent argument and would like to buy your dog walker machine!

*rubs hands together* Egggxxxxcelllent!!! I'll get back to you with a very over-inflated reasonable mates-rate price....... muwahahahaha!

*nips off to bodgy-up something with a conveyor belt*

[koalathebear]

Still, an interesting topic to raise KTB!

Thanks dear!!! I wasn't sure people read the bit where I said I didn't agree with the article, I own TWO clickers and just thought that the article was interesting - _{which I still maintain it is.}

[OSoSwift]

Only two clickers - I have 6 that I know where they are and about 25 that are around here somewhere!

[Aussienot]

tool, tool, tool

Can't wait to read the promised upcoming article "Using a Guard Dog to Protect You from Prostitutes'

(Under Read this First, on the article page, in case you think I'm making it up.)

[spottychick]

tool, tool, tool

Can't wait to read the promised upcoming article "Using a Guard Dog to Protect You from Prostitutes'

(Under Read this First, on the article page, in case you think I'm making it up.)

Hahahahha No way!!!

Oh those rabid prostitutes. Scarey mean critters!!! They take no prisoners!! Well .....unless you want them to hee hee

[bedazzledx2]

Join the lost clicker club!!!! I buy 5 at a time and every so often I find them...Jackpot!!!

Only two clickers - I have 6 that I know where they are and about 25 that are around here somewhere!

[Tapua]

Join the lost clicker club!!!! I buy 5 at a time and every so often I find them...Jackpot!!!

Only two clickers - I have 6 that I know where they are and about 25 that are around here somewhere!

My place is 'Valley of the lost clicker' I am sure my guys sneek them outside and bury them!!!!!!!!

As for the article - sounds like he has some unresolved issues. I dont know many trainers who dont use a 'tool-box' of methods and styles - what works for one dog often doenst work well for the next one. I am the one who had to change and adapt to my dogs personality and drive. Clickers work sometimes, food, growl, play, toys whatever - each dog - like humans are individuals. Good luck to the trainer who doesnt get that one!

[Simply Grand]

I've been reading more of this guy's website, I find him very strange... Some of the stuff he says makes sense but he's so combative about it, as though everyone else who says anything about dog training or behaviour is totally wrong and only he knows whats right (even if the other person says the same thing as him).

He says operant conditioning (which he seems to define as simply using rewards) is invalid, but also says that constant corrections is wrong, and I couldn't find anything that explains what he actually thinks works... Not that I read the whole website!

It sounds like he says that all you have to do to train dogs is to be the pack leader and not allow the dog to do anything you don't want it to do, it's that easy! (he doesn't say how to do it, obviously you have to pay him to show you in person)

Oh and the article about protecting you from prostitutes suggests getting a new dog and referring the prostitutes for counselling...

http://samthedogtrainer.com/articles/using...om-prostitutes/

[FranVT]

Also just insanely long-winded! Major case of TL;DR right here. All his articles are the same.

What a tool.

[m-j]

Hmm what a strange person. Can't say I agree with him.

Even discussing how ridiculous the article is gives it more attention than it deserves.

It is interesting to see how some people actually do think, though

He also doesn't believe in operant conditioning, claiming that it is obsolete. His ignorance of everything from psychology to marine mammal training is stunning. Then again, a recent survey in the US suggested that 20% of respondents believe that the sun revolves around the earth.

My nephews at senior high school age went to a contest in America with the orchestra they played in . They had a wonderful time enlightening the locals (high school students of similar age and older) on the "fact" that when the tide was out you could walk between Sydney and Auckland. :rolleyes: They also told them many other "facts" but that was the only one I remembered.

Edited October 27, 2010 by m-j