lappiemum Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 This has come through to me today and I thought it may be of interest - please note, this is UK only (not here). However, its definately worth noting. It is cross posted with the source from the Kennel Club's website (webpage at end of post). The Kennel Club Kennel Club Takes The Lead On Litter Limits For Bitches The Kennel Club has announced that from 2012 it will normally register no more than four litters from any one bitch because of concerns that the current legal limit of six litters can potentially be detrimental to a bitch’s welfare. The decision was made by the Kennel Club General Committee after receiving a recommendation from its Dog Health Group and will be effective for litters born on or after 1st January 2012. Six litters per bitch is the current legal limit enshrined in the Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999. Bill Lambert, the Kennel Club’s Health and Breeder Services Manager, said: “The Kennel Club wants to ensure that all breeders put the health and welfare of their puppies and breeding bitches first and foremost, and this decision underlines our commitment to this issue. “Whilst the law allows bitches to have six litters in a lifetime and our registration system has previously fallen in line with this, the vast majority of responsible breeders feel that this is too high and that there is potential for this to have a negative impact on the welfare of the bitch. “Very serious consideration has to be given to the matter if a breeder wishes a bitch to have more than four litters but the Kennel Club may grant permission for this to happen if it believes that there is good and justifiable reason for doing so on a case by case basis.” The Kennel Club has also urged the government to follow suit and to tighten up the law in order to help clamp down on puppy farmers. Mr Lambert added: “Of course, this decision will sadly not impact on those people who do not register their litters with the Kennel Club, in particular puppy farmers who breed purely for profit and tend to show little consideration for an animal’s welfare. Legislation needs to be tightened so that these people can be brought to account.” The Kennel Club has called for the principles and standards of the Kennel Club Accredited Breeder Scheme to be made mandatory for all dog breeders. This means that breeders would have to put the health and welfare of their puppies first, for example by giving their dogs the required health tests for their breed and ensuring that potential buyers see the puppies with their mothers and in their home environment. A petition with 15,000 signatures supporting this objective was handed in to Number Ten Downing Street just a year ago by Ian Cawsey MP. ENDS 22nd November 2010 [430.10] Article Information Publisher: The Kennel Club Published Date: Categories: Responsible Dog Breeding, Accredited Breeder Scheme (ABS) Sections: This page was printed from The Kennel Club. Please visit http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 idiots, is all I can say The Kennel Club has announced that from 2012 it will normally register no more than four litters from any one bitch because of concerns that the current legal limit of six litters can potentially be detrimental to a bitch’s welfare. 1 litter can potentially be detrimental to a bitches welfare, due to poor breeding of the bitch herself or poor breeding practices. Those bitches that mate, whelp and raise easily to produce quality offspring time and again, should be the very one's we have larger numbers of litters from. Once upon a time, the bitch who easily whelped and raised 6 litters in her life time was prized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stolzseinrotts Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 As usual, more rules for those that already comply and conform with a COE and Kennel Council rules and no accountablity for those that don't have to be bound by COE's and rules. How long before we have this rule come in here??? We already have the close inbreeding rule coming into effect soon. Breeders are told what they can and can't do, gee soon enough and we will have no rights what so ever. I really feel for those with the toy breeds that have very small litters, it really makes it hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stolzseinrotts Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 (edited) Once upon a time, the bitch who easily whelped and raised 6 litters in her life time was prized. A bitch like that is worth their weight in gold! And I agree they are the ones that should be contributing more to the gene pool because of the quality they do produce. Edited November 23, 2010 by Stolzseinrotts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lappiemum Posted November 23, 2010 Author Share Posted November 23, 2010 My understanding is that a number of states already have limitations per bitch - to have another litter you require vet certificate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 OMG talk about over regulation. If a girl is not up to it then no more litters. If they are then go for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffordz Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 (edited) I personally couldnt see the need for more than 4 litters from any 1 bitch. If she is such an excellent whelping bitch (as described above) then surely you would have at least 1 better young one from her to continue on with and if you cant get from her anything from 4 litters, then maybe she just isnt a producer. One of our best producing bitch has had 2 litters and from that has given us 3 lovely bitches to continue on with (better than herself) and 2 boys to use later on - what more does she need to do ?? Our English Imported bitch had 1 litter before contracting pyo (sadly) but still from her 3 beauties, so all wasnt lost and no need for 4, 5 or 6 litters. JMHO Justine Bustabones SBT Tas Edited November 23, 2010 by Staffordz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 Some people might draw the line in the sand and say, they will only ever breed a bitch once or twice, for others it might be three or four and so on. It doesn't mean that those who choose to have a higher number of litters from a bitch who is an excellent producer is any less ethical or does not make their decisions with the bitches health in mind. I respect a breeders choice to have one litter, I respect their choice to have six. It's all about choices and just because one breeders decision is not the same as the next, doesn't mean they should not be able to make it. It's easy to say " ohh well, I only ever have 3 litters " or " I never do close matings " " I won't mate a bitch over the age of 8 " and the list goes on, but what sits right with you and is right for you, is not necessarily in the best interests of other breeders dogs. We are sitting back and letting the rights of breeders to make choices be taken away, simply because it's not something that we as fellow breeders might choose to do ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 (edited) This is happening all over Europe, in what are held up as the best breeding programs in the world. Though we may escape this for a while, I think it will only make us look backward to not consider making some changes in this direction. BTW in many countries in Europe stud dogs are also being limited on how many litters they can sire to reduce popular sire syndrom effect. The number is adjusted for each breed after review of COI levels and other population considerations such as disease and total size of population. Personally I have never bred a bitch more than 4 times, so again this change would not affect me or change anything I do. So no drama for me. Edited November 23, 2010 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lappiemum Posted November 23, 2010 Author Share Posted November 23, 2010 In Finland there is a restriction on how many puppies a sire can produce - limit is 20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 (edited) In Finland there is a restriction on how many puppies a sire can produce - limit is 20. Yep I am looking at some pups for sale in Finland and speaking with the breeders. For my breed they have this great database. Just put in the pedigree number and up comes everything! Pedigree with COI of all the dogs behind with photos. Every pup, every sibling, every aunt and uncle. The all the health testing for all the dogs in the pedigreee as well as all the relatives. Then you can plug in your bitch or dog (if you are in the system) as a mate and it will pull out all of the above for a pretend litter. BTW the cost of the pups is not cheap, but I am sold. Edited November 23, 2010 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 limiting the number of times a dog can be used at stud or upper limits on COI's isn;t going to improve a breeds overall health. It's just going to mean that once a dogs quota is used up, the owners of bitches will be using second/third or second rate choice sires. That's if they keep breeding and don;t walk away. It's hard enough to find a quality sire, that is line bred and ties in with your plans, let alone being further restricted. So we have everyone outcrossing to keep COI's within the new "acceptable" number and we don;t see any improvement in breed health, what then ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 That is crazy 20 :) what about a GSD who could produce 28 pups from 2 matings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 (edited) limiting the number of times a dog can be used at stud or upper limits on COI's isn;t going to improve a breeds overall health. It's just going to mean that once a dogs quota is used up, the owners of bitches will be using second/third or second rate choice sires. That's if they keep breeding and don;t walk away.It's hard enough to find a quality sire, that is line bred and ties in with your plans, let alone being further restricted. So we have everyone outcrossing to keep COI's within the new "acceptable" number and we don;t see any improvement in breed health, what then ? We either find our own way to make it palatable or we get it shoved down our throats. It is going to be part of breeding programs in the near future, like it or not. Besides, I am sure that if the Fins, Swedes and Norwegians can figure this out and still be breeding nice dogs, surely we can do it too. Edited November 23, 2010 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 (edited) Just wanted to add about COI. From what I have seen they are not limiting upper limits. What they do is look at the breed over all COI. Then decide how high that is and how fast things should change. Then a number is put on it, it might be that each next generation needs to be 0.5% lower than their lowest parent. What I do not like about McGreevy is saying, is that you never stop reducing the COI until you reach 0%. I think that is too far. I would add, that in the plans I have read in places like Norway, it has more a feel of temporay or always under review, as if right now this is where they are aiming and they will decide later what to do next. Also remember that the breeders there are very much a part of these plans as they are driving it to happen. However if we do not drive these changes for ourselves, then others will be only too glad to make us do it and they will write the rules, and we may end up with something far less to our likeing, Edited November 23, 2010 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lappiemum Posted November 23, 2010 Author Share Posted November 23, 2010 (edited) That is crazy 20 what about a GSD who could produce 28 pups from 2 matings. If it was in Finland - or Sweden - then its stud days in those countries would be done. However, thats not to say they don't get sent elsewhere, and the progeny registered in that country. There is also a base recommendation on COI but that is more of a domestic issue I would argue. Edited November 23, 2010 by lappiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
becks Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 yes, good stud dogs do go 'on tour' and collect titles in various countries as they go. One of my dogs has been in Sweden for a year, he is now being shown and used at stud in Iceland. The breeder who previously had him, has also sent one of her dogs off to Hungary for a year. These rules maybe fine in the short term, but the global population still has access to these dogs and the popular sire can now have a bigger, direct influence internationally, then previoulsy when a pup may have been sent abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted November 23, 2010 Share Posted November 23, 2010 show me how any of this will improve the health of a breed ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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