Greytmate Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Why do Pet shops deserve a 'balanced view' when their practices are what causes so many problems? I am a little bit horrified at the thought that some people are somehow not entitled to a balanced view being presented of themselves. That is backwards logic at best. Whether they deserve it or not is beside the point, though. Presenting one side of the story doesn't tell anyone anything except the writer's opinion on the issue. It's kinda hypocritical to get upset about the likes of Pedigree Dogs Exposed, but not be terribly bothered to produce a balanced view of pet shops, for example. It is not backwards logic. There are problems inherent in keeping litters of pups in glass boxes on retail shelves. All pups will be damaged to some extent by being raised this way during a critical period. Some damage will not even be recognised by the owners. Buying a pup of unknown parentage is like playing Russian roullette. Why should we care what the lucky ones say, after being ignorant enough to play that dangerous game in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 The balanced view would be showing the alternative - People who have bought dogs from places where animal welfare was paramount and where some degree of quality control is happening. Ethical registered breeders or responsible and ethical Rescue-rehoming orgs that assess the dogs they sell. People that do things that pet shops will never do, because it isn't profitable enough to do them. A balanced view is to compare prices for well-bred dogs V pet shop dogs. A balanced view is to compare buying a dog of pedigree V a dog of unknown parentage. A balanced view is to compare buying a pup raised in the atmosphere of a puppy yard V a pup raised in a strict retail environment. It isn't balanced to show people happy with pet shop dogs because they do not realise how much they were ripped off, and how lucky they are that their dog is healthy, sound or as described at the point of sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) Why exactly are you against pet stores? And I take it you are a breeder yourself? Where and of what? I've never bred a dog in my life and I'm TOTALLY against pups in pet stores. Why you ask? Geeze how long have you got? * Most pet shop pups come from commercial scale breeders (we call 'em puppy farmers) who wean pups early, ship them before a responsible breeder would sell a pup to a home and then split litters across franchises. Result? Pups bred in factory like conditions, with little human exposure. They are shipped when too young to have left home and only partially vaccinated then exposed to all and sundry at a very important socialisation stage and when they are at high risk for disease. At the age they are in stores they should be at home, getting fresh air sunlight and free exercise - and they pay a price for not getting them. * Those pups are forced to eat, sleep, play and eliminate in those little perspex boxes. Result? Bullying and often nightmare toilet training issues. * Pups are mislabelled by breed, sold with a bunch of misinformation to folk who are ill prepared to deal with them. Result? Dumped or ignored dogs. Labradors are not "naturally obedient". Mareemas and not "just like white Golden Retrievers. Dogs not properly groomed (oodles etc) who suffer because they're owned by people too ignorant or tight fisted to have them professionally clipped or to learn to do it themselves. You want an "hypo-allergenic" dog - that means professional grooming people but the pet shop folk can't even sell you the right brushes/combs to use on one. * Pups don't come from health tested parents. You know the result of that. If you really want an objective view about this talk to TRAINERS. We're the people who pick up the pieces and try and sort out problems. No point in just promoting rescue dogs as the alternative when you can buy a pup from a responsible registered breeder. There aren't that many pups in rescue, they're a complete lottery in terms of size and temperament a fair bit of the time and like it or lump it, some folk want a particular sort of dog for their home. That's why if you want a PUP your best bet is a responsible registered breeder who also offers support during puppy raising. Edited January 10, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 No point in just promoting rescue dogs as the alternative when you can buy a pup from a responsible registered breeder. There aren't that many pups in rescue, they're a complete lottery in terms of size and temperament a fair bit of the time and like it or lump it, some folk want a particular sort of dog for their home. That's why if you want a PUP your best bet is a responsible registered breeder who also offers support during puppy raising. I would agree with this. But even if people do buy a pup from a rescue org, they will be paying around $400 for a pup that has been desexed, vaccinated, wormed, and raised in a yard not a glass box. If they buy a pup from a pet shop they are getting exactly the same risks of bad breeding, but they will be paying double or more, and will then have to pay another $300 if they choose to have the dog desexed. Where does ignorance begin and stupidity start? Pet shops are ripping people off blindly, and people don't know any different. Maybe this is a chance to tell people how terribly they are being treated by these retailers? Got time for a week long expose instead of just one story Sandyk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I can tell you that the mark up on pups in pet shops makes the clothing mark ups look pale. 200 -300% isn't uncommon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fit for a King Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Apart from the excellent information posted by Natsu chan, other issues with pet shop puppies that should be examined are that they are often an impulse buy...ie: gorgeous little puppy in the window. Particularly with small breeds, a dog can live for 16 yrs plus. 'A dog is for life...not for Christmas!' should be hammered into people's heads but it is not. There is also a lot of incorrect information given in pet shops too...especially with poodle cross puppies. ie: They don't shed - most of them do. They need minimal grooming - they do and often more so than a purebred poodle. eg: One lady I met at our dog park a few years back bought a poodle X puppy and was told that he was a Miniature Poodle X miniature Curly Coated Retriever (which does not exist as a 'miniature'). She was also told at the pet shop that he would need minimal grooming, just a trim with scissors on his tummy occasionally. When he got the stage of looking like a walking shag pile carpet, we (the other dog walkers and I) finally convinced this lady that he HAD to go to a grooming salon and regularly. I suspect she thought she had bought a low maintenance dog but he certainly wasn't, and will require ongoing costs with grooming for the rest of his life. Another issue is what the adult dog will look like. eg: the Puggle, a cross between a Pug and a Beagle. Every puppy is cute but honestly, adult 'Puggle' crosses are not a pretty dog. Without seeing an adult example of the dog, people have no idea what the end result will be....and as a result end up with a dog that looks nothing like the cute puppy it was. Yet another issue is 'hybrid vigour'....an idea pushed by a certain TV personality called 'He who shall not be named', who espoused the joys of cross bred puppies having hybrid vigour. This falls apart when you cross two breeds who are prone to certain conditions such as luxating patellas and hip dysplasia or breed from dogs indiscriminately as they do in the large scale puppy farms. If you look at some of the larger pet shop chains, they are often staffed by young girls who work part time, particularly on weekends. Whilst they may love animals and be enthusiastic...they probably have minimal experience of dog ownership/dog training etc. and probably get little or no training from the shop owner/management. Just some more food for thought. and the other big issue here is the misinformation about breeds given out at pet stores - for instance there was a spate of Maremmas being sold through a particular pet store chain and they were described by staff as being "great family pets - just like Golden Retrievers" - what utter nonsense and potential disaster for a family.....obvioulsy staff knew niothing and either made up the drivel or just repeated by rote what they had been told..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Good on you, Nic, for pointing Sandy to someone who could provide what she asked for. Excellent choice, Denise from PAWS. Sandy, I wonder if you would include the critical factor of where the puppies in pet shops have come from? 'Puppy farming' is one known source. Where puppies are bred from dogs that have no other life than to be bred from. And with no other aim than to sell the puppies for the highest price possible. There's strong evidence that puppies' early weeks even before they get plonked into a pet shop window are very important for how they'll grow into companion pets. They need to be socialised from the very beginning, handled caringly. They also need to have mother dogs that are socialised, too, because puppies learn from their behaviours. This is not a matter of warm fuzzies, it's a matter of brain development. There's scientific evidence that puppies who do not get this required start in life, are more likely to have the kind of behaviour problems which later get them dumped in a pound or euthanased RSPCA Qld strongly advises people to never buy a puppy bred in puppy-farming conditions. Yet puppy-farming exists to supply puppies to the public. And customers have no direct evidence of where & how the puppies for sale, have been bred/raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandyK Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 are you only interested is stories in your state? or are you looking nationally? Thanks everyone for really valuable information. I still desperately need another case study and wonder if anyone could suggest someone we could film who has had, or even better, is having trouble after purchasing from a pet store. Can be in any state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 are you only interested is stories in your state? or are you looking nationally? Thanks everyone for really valuable information. I still desperately need another case study and wonder if anyone could suggest someone we could film who has had, or even better, is having trouble after purchasing from a pet store. Can be in any state. I think a hidden camera "purchase" inquiry could be interesting. Walk in, flash your credit card and test the assertion that retailers carefully vet purchasers for suitability. That's what they're claiming. Comparing something like a pet shop purchase of a Shih Tzu or similar to what a responsible breeder requires could be interesting. So many of those pups go to plainly unsuitable homes and its the dogs that suffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Doesn't DOL member CW EW have an ex-pet shop pup with problems? The type of story you are looking for does get posted about here from time to time. It will be time consuming to do a search, so hopefully other members here will be able to refer you to the right people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) I think a hidden camera "purchase" inquiry could be interesting. Walk in, flash your credit card and test the assertion that retailers carefully vet purchasers for suitability. That's what they're claiming. Comparing something like a pet shop purchase of a Shih Tzu or similar to what a responsible breeder requires could be interesting. So many of those pups go to plainly unsuitable homes and its the dogs that suffer. Or simply ask to be supplied with documented evidence of where a puppy you're 'interested' in buying, comes from. What is the name & address & contact details of the breeder. Point out the scientific evidence (from UQ) that, how a puppy is raised in its first weeks, is critical to how it turns out later as a pet. So, when buying a pet, you must know this information. And, as the shop is selling the puppies as pets, they need to supply the means of finding out how that puppy was bred/raised & in what conditions for the mother dog. RSPCA Qld advice would back your question: Never buy an animal bred in a puppy farm. See what information you get....or do not get. Not just someone's word... actual documented evidence is what a pet buyer needs. Edited January 10, 2011 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I have a pet store puppy who has had problems since the day we bought her home - not serious issues like some people, but she's had serious allergies, two luxating patellas, a disaligned jaw etc. She's 12 years old now and we love her dearly so it's not a terrible story. I know people who have bought pups from pet stores and then had the pup die, had to be PTS due to health problems etc. But like others the issue for me is not just the fact that you are playing lottery when you buy a puppy from a pet store in terms of health, temperament etc. But that you are buying a puppy who, in all likelihood, has come from a puppy farm and then been raised in an environment that is detrimental to their development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I think that a 'hidden camera' walk in would be great. Another little bizarre story on pet shops - I saw 2 little fluffies in a pet shop in Parramatta the other day. They were advertised as "Toy Poodle x Mini Poodle" They still didn't look like Poodles, even though allegedly both parents were Poodles, and they were tri coloured. I am not an expert on Poodles but I haven't heard of a tri coloured Poodle before. Nonetheless, one issue with Pet SHops selling pups is that the puppy farmers will tell them they are Gt Danes and the young shop assistants have no training and believe whatever the farmer says, or they simply don't care. In this example, the purchaser will think they have a Poodle and nothing could be further from the truth. There have been several members here on DOL who have purchased dogs from Pet Shops and have posted a picture of a now adult dog or near adult dog that has turined out to be twoce the size they expected or were told the dog would grwo and nothing like the corss breed it was originally meant to be. This is an issue not just in size and expectations of new owners, but also of the immense behavioural differences and needs of different breeds of dogs. When the dog ends up 'not as expected' it then contributes to the large number of dogs dumped or surrendered each year that are killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Personally, basing objections to pet shop dogs based on the assumption that they are 'defective' is wrong. Most will grow up to be happy healthy dogs. The reason to object to pet shop dogs is welfare, not 'inferior product' based.. and the misinformation that is shovelled out by the retailers. Ask yourself where all pup bought, kept very poorly in apartments and dumped later on by students in the CBDs come from... Melbourne is the hot spot for this I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Personally, basing objections to pet shop dogs based on the assumption that they are 'defective' is wrong. Most will grow up to be happy healthy dogs. Evidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) Personally, basing objections to pet shop dogs based on the assumption that they are 'defective' is wrong. Most will grow up to be happy healthy dogs. Evidence? All around me. Meet them constantly and given the shite start most get in life, they are nice dogs. Any assumption that its the DOGS that are the problem with pet shop sales has their eyes fastened firmly on the wrong end of the issue. Dogs are the victims in this trade, not the problem. Edited January 10, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) Personally, basing objections to pet shop dogs based on the assumption that they are 'defective' is wrong. Most will grow up to be happy healthy dogs. Evidence? All around me. Meet them constantly and given the shite start most get in life, they are nice dogs. Any assumption that its the DOGS that are the problem with pet shop sales has their eyes fastened firmly on the wrong end of the issue. Dogs are the victims in this trade, not the problem. That's what's called anecdotal evidence. The puppies being sold in pet stores are of unknown origin, to the potential pet buyer. The origin of puppies from their genetic make-up to extent of early socialisation, is critical information for that buyer re what they'll be taking home to 'work with'. But pet stores do not routinely disclose that information (in the form of documented evidence) for puppy-buyers to make informed decisions on. Yet one source of supply is known to be puppy-farming conditions, where problems of that kind are more prevalent. Without detailed knowledge of background, buyers have no idea if that's the source of the puppy they're buying. So this is one valid issue to bring up re purchasing puppies from pet stores. No one is making blanket statements that all dogs will later present with problems. Given that not all the puppies will have come from similar sources. Edited January 10, 2011 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatzelwurm Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Staff have inferior knowledge of the requirements of the stock they sell. Many different breeds, experience is necessary, teenage girls on casual hours will not acquire that knowledge. This is anecdotal, but worth checking. * People being told Golden Retrievers are excellent for older people, for apartments, and need little exercise * Huskies being touted as low exercise * Maremmas - "herding dogs" just like retrievers. Grow the size of a Blue Cattle Dog Information on the requirement of the pups edited to suit the buyer's requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandyK Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 I have a pet store puppy who has had problems since the day we bought her home - not serious issues like some people, but she's had serious allergies, two luxating patellas, a disaligned jaw etc. She's 12 years old now and we love her dearly so it's not a terrible story. I know people who have bought pups from pet stores and then had the pup die, had to be PTS due to health problems etc. But like others the issue for me is not just the fact that you are playing lottery when you buy a puppy from a pet store in terms of health, temperament etc. But that you are buying a puppy who, in all likelihood, has come from a puppy farm and then been raised in an environment that is detrimental to their development. Would you be able to ask those people you know who have had pups PTS or die whether they would allow me to call them? If so, could you pass on phone numbers please? You may feel more comfortable emailing me numbers [email protected] Thank you so very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W Sibs Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) Doesn't DOL member CW EW have an ex-pet shop pup with problems?The type of story you are looking for does get posted about here from time to time. It will be time consuming to do a search, so hopefully other members here will be able to refer you to the right people. I didn't get Charlie from a pet shop I'm against pet shop that sells puppies and kitten though. Edited January 11, 2011 by CW EW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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