Rain Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 What an interesting topic, i have been reading about Belgians and German Sheps as well for the future. On the GS side i like the look of the working lines much better than show lines as i dont like the roached back, not sure though if they would be too much dog for me to own. How do people exercise a working line puppy as i know you dont want to damage them while their growing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwenneth1 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 What an interesting topic, i have been reading about Belgians and German Sheps as well for the future. On the GS side i like the look of the working lines much better than show lines as i dont like the roached back, not sure though if they would be too much dog for me to own. How do people exercise a working line puppy as i know you dont want to damage them while their growing. Y That is exactly the type of GSD lines I spent time looking for. I actually like the lighter, straighter topline type in build which the working lines seem to have, some of the lines (from what I learned) have that sharper edge to them (coming from policia background), so it was a matter of getting the type with a nice drive without being too sharp (as I don't have an interest in protection/schutzhund). This is what interested me in the Belgians was their nice atheletic, nimble looking build. I really am enjoying this post, because the Belgian owners are being very objective and forthright in their views. Amanda from Vanrusselhof seems to get a lot of recommendation on here and other sites to be the person to get further information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 If you are prepared to have your dog with you a lot then a WL dog will be fine, I also think you should know a lot about drive satisfaction and training before you get a WL dog. A WL dog wont fit into a backyard of little work and attention, they need a job and take it very seriously. They would drive you and your other dogs nuts IMO. I have found my dog easy to live with but I have done the hard yards with training, I have learnt heaps and am prepared to put in the time. I also have the opportunity to be at home with him and am able to do lots of little bits of training every day. As I said in the other thread, if he was locked in a backyard he would be a fruitloop, not sure if that is typical or just him and his upbringing. If I put him outside on his own free will, he will run/pace until he is foaming, not a good thing. In the house he is an angel and the perfect dog. I have a friend with a young WL GSD and she is the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I will say that having met PAX's boy he is just divine! Though he makes my working Kelpie seem half asleep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) I will say that having met PAX's boy he is just divine! Though he makes my working Kelpie seem half asleep :D Thanks Kavik, I love your dogs too. My crazy WL boy is asleep in the doorway waiting for me to finish up on the bloody computer, bless him. Edited January 12, 2011 by PAX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 dogsportobsessed I would go with a show line from someone like Amanda Russel. Some showies are still great for agility, but repetative actions for a working line will drive them mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAX Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I see a lot of show lines that are a nervous wreck, what ever pup you get, make sure you like Mum and Dad's nature. Also ask around in the field you want it for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I see a lot of show lines that are a nervous wreck, what ever pup you get, make sure you like Mum and Dad's nature. Also ask around in the field you want it for. that pretty much goes for any breed if the parents are not stable then dont touch it with a 10 foot pole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwenneth1 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 dogsportobsessed I would go with a show line from someone like Amanda Russel. Some showies are still great for agility, but repetative actions for a working line will drive them mad. Do you mean repetition work say that is involved in obedience? Would they switch 'off' and become bored or do you have to motivate them in various ways? (that's it, no more questions in this paragraph ...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 from my experience, if you get a really drivey working line they will happily do obedience etc but they keep wanting to raise the bar. If you want a dog just for some obedience or agility get a lower drive from a working litter or get a show line. Many working lines are also breeding dogs with higher civil drive for security/military work and if you're not used to a dog like that it can go a bit pear shaped. Eg one of the pups I babysat had pretty good guarding in her, if people ran past she would growl, bark and lunge out like 'OI RACK OFF!' not something wanted in an obedience/agility dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozzie Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Do you mean repetition work say that is involved in obedience? Would they switch 'off' and become bored or do you have to motivate them in various ways? (that's it, no more questions in this paragraph ...) Mine spent some time at obedience being a 'post' for figure eights. He'd had enough of whatever we were doing, so would drop and stay. Luckily, the instructor and class were obliging (not to mention laughing hysterically) . He loved agility best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwenneth1 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Do you mean repetition work say that is involved in obedience? Would they switch 'off' and become bored or do you have to motivate them in various ways? (that's it, no more questions in this paragraph ...) Mine spent some time at obedience being a 'post' for figure eights. He'd had enough of whatever we were doing, so would drop and stay. Luckily, the instructor and class were obliging (not to mention laughing hysterically) . He loved agility best. Oh, that makes me laugh. He probably thought "I've got this down pat, just because she's too stupid to learn it doesn't mean I have to keep going--and I'm DONE!" Smarter than your average cookie methinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozzie Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I'm pretty sure that was EXACTLY what was going through his mind at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacqui835 Posted January 12, 2011 Author Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) If you are prepared to have your dog with you a lot then a WL dog will be fine, I also think you should know a lot about drive satisfaction and training before you get a WL dog.A WL dog wont fit into a backyard of little work and attention, they need a job and take it very seriously. They would drive you and your other dogs nuts IMO. I have found my dog easy to live with but I have done the hard yards with training, I have learnt heaps and am prepared to put in the time. I also have the opportunity to be at home with him and am able to do lots of little bits of training every day. As I said in the other thread, if he was locked in a backyard he would be a fruitloop, not sure if that is typical or just him and his upbringing. If I put him outside on his own free will, he will run/pace until he is foaming, not a good thing. In the house he is an angel and the perfect dog. I have a friend with a young WL GSD and she is the same. If anyone here has seen the photos of me and my doberman, you will see straight away that my dog lives with me at all times. I take him everywhere with me, and fortunately my partner has fallen in love with him too so now neither of us want to go anywhere that we can't take the pooch. I'm totally confident that left to the backyard, my dobe would be destructive and noisy but he really is part of our family so that doesn't even come into the reasons of why we have him with us all the time. We do several short training sessions a day, and he always has to do something for any food. We do not reward or encourage begging or demanding behaviour and in fact I haven't seen him try anything like that in ages. If we want to invite him up onto the couch or something, we wait until he's lying down calmly on the floor. There are several things he does now without even having to be asked. He sits when he sees something he wants. He will stay seated where I took his lead off until I tell him he can go, without being asked to stay etc. I can't stand GSD's with roached backs and wobbly hindquarters. My doberman is from working lines, and I like that he is always on the ball, catches on quickly and wants to please, so ideally I want another dog like this. That said, he can relax, and will happily sleep in with me when we want to. I can take him with me to friend's apartments and he is very calm and reliable. He's best with a walk every day, and a decent off-lead run though on occasions when the weather has been shocking, he has managed ok without one. Sometimes we go anyway, and if it rains for more than a day well we have to go, but that's good for me too so no complaints there. I have had a few family/personal emergencies and during those times have had to leave my dog alone for longer than usual, and he has been alright (it's not something I really have to worry about if I know I'll be home that night). What would happen in those situations with a Mal vs GSD? You wouldn't believe what I saw down at the park yesterday - a half Belgian half German Shepherd called Misty. She was an accident but a fantastic dog and honestly if I could have one exactly like her I would take it. She matched my dog's energy perfectly and they had a great run and wrestle and despite her being smaller she was so quick she really gave my boy a run for his money. She was very intense, and you could tell she had a lot going on upstairs but that's exactly the dog I want in my family. I couldn't tell though whether she was taking more after the belgian or the german side, she was quite light on her feet though. I am really looking forward to meeting members of both breeds and seeing them in action. Edited January 12, 2011 by jacqui835 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 a dog is how you raise it. You can buy the best dog from the best lines and turn it into a disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abed Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) my bitch will chill out but only if I am. If i'm doing something she has to be involved. Well usually, now we're getting older we're getting crotchety and happy to lay back and chill out, terrorise puppies, guard the front etc. You do need to train and keep their minds active but then in the off times they will chill (for a bit lol) Nekhbet, you know as well as I do that the Malinois lines vary somewhat and you get a male out of Zico or Kasper with an inexperienced owner for example you are in Dutch Shepherd country, far too much dog for the average dog owner and the Malinois needs to be met with caution somewhat as to where they come from and the lines that produce them. There are many nervy showline Mals with over sharpness that are worse than a weaker GSD in defence reactivity. Across the board, a working line GSD is far more handler compliant with a wider window for error correction than a Mal and quite frankly, if someone hasn't owned a working line GSD or Rottweiler with competent handling skills, a Mal would be last breed I would recommend unless the pup and lines are chosen with experience and diligence to match the owners experience level. Edited January 12, 2011 by abed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Jones Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Malinois people I have a question! Is there a huge difference between working and show line? Would you suggest someone who is looking for a obedience/agility dog (*cough.me.cough*) to lean towards WL or SL? Yes as with most breeds there is a huge difference between working and show line. You also have a difference in drives and temperament between working line Malinois being bred for different sports/pursuits. eg KNPV and Schutzhund. I recommend obedience / agility owners as Nekhbet suggested look in to the show line Malinois first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 As I said in the other thread, if he was locked in a backyard he would be a fruitloop, not sure if that is typical or just him and his upbringing. If I put him outside on his own free will, he will run/pace until he is foaming, not a good thing. In the house he is an angel and the perfect dog. My WL is the same r.e. the backyard. If I keep her with me for the majority of the day and throw in a bunch of training sessions to satisfy her drive, she's quite OK to live with in the evenings. But the weeks I have had to leave her at home in the yard by herself for the whole of every day, she's a twisty foaming nutty ball of energy when I get home (and has generally terrorised the neighbours with her supersonic bark, plus worn tracks into the lawn from her ceaseless pacing). I'm lucky that I'm hopefully going to end up in a job that will let me bring her to work at least some of the time - don't think she'd cope very well with being a yard dog during the entire working week. The showlines I've met have been lower energy, less predatory, less protective, and often nervier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwenneth1 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 (edited) my bitch will chill out but only if I am. If i'm doing something she has to be involved. Well usually, now we're getting older we're getting crotchety and happy to lay back and chill out, terrorise puppies, guard the front etc. You do need to train and keep their minds active but then in the off times they will chill (for a bit lol) Nekhbet, you know as well as I do that the Malinois lines vary somewhat and you get a male out of Zico or Kasper with an inexperienced owner for example you are in Dutch Shepherd country, far too much dog for the average dog owner and the Malinois needs to be met with caution somewhat as to where they come from and the lines that produce them. There are many nervy showline Mals with over sharpness that are worse than a weaker GSD in defence reactivity. Across the board, a working line GSD is far more handler compliant with a wider window for error correction than a Mal and quite frankly, if someone hasn't owned a working line GSD or Rottweiler with competent handling skills, a Mal would be last breed I would recommend unless the pup and lines are chosen with experience and diligence to match the owners experience level. So the way I've interpreted the post is (and again, bear with my ignorance... with all things Belgian) that regardless of whether it is show or working some show lines still could be over sharp (and somewhat nervy and I assume (?) that some working lines could also be prone to being nervy? I'm guessing (and again everybody feel free to comment because I am trying to learn...slow witted as I am ) from what is written, the Belgian needs more careful selection than the average GSD would? It would boil down to the potential Belgian owner being realistic and honest about themselves and (for me the tricky part) would be finding an experienced knowledgeable breeder who would do their best to match suitable candidates. Edited January 12, 2011 by gwenneth1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 So the way I've interpreted the post is (and again, bear with my ignorance... with all things Belgian) that regardless of whether it is show or working some show lines still could be over sharp (and somewhat nervy and I assume (?) that some working lines could also be prone to being nervy? I'm guessing (and again everybody feel free to comment because I am trying to learn...slow witted as I am ) from what is written, the Belgian needs more careful selection than the average GSD would? It would boil down to the potential Belgian owner being realistic and honest about themselves and (for me the tricky part) would be finding an experienced knowledgeable breeder who would do their best to match suitable candidates. Not from what I've seen. The GSD is a far more popular dog in terms of numbers whelped but I'd only recommend the same careful vetting be applied to either dog in terms of finding sound dogs of good temperament. There are nervy GSDs too. Breeder selection is crucial (but you can argue that for any breed I suppose) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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