mini girl Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Interested to get some other breeders opinion as to what to do in my situation - I am a registered breeder for a few years now trying to do the best possible - but purchased a beautiful pup from New Zealand to add as a future stud - he is a lovely boy now 9 months old - good composition, head, colour but at 15 weeks took him for shots at the vet and he told me he had mild patella - this really was devistating news and no way I could send him back would cost me $1000 just to ship him back to his breeder - I don't blame the breeder as I know patella can skip up to 6 generations and I feel I was just plain unlucky - she asked me to run him on till 12 months and see if it really developed or was just a puppy thing. I have agreed to do this and if it is confirmed at 12 months what to do - this is my delima - should I have him desexed and sell him to a good home or risk one litter with him and see the outcome- my conscience tells me don't do it but what I would like to know is what are the chances of getting good pups from him? Has anyone had experience with this? He is very sound in every other way and the most beautiful temperament. When the vet looked at him he thought it only a mild case grade one - I've watched him closely - at 9 months he does not have any pain or tendency to limp does not even hop or carry the leg but does lift it sometimes when coming down stairs - the breeder has offered to refund me half of my cost to her if I do find out he does have patella when 12 months old - its such an awful thing Patella no tests for it as far as DNA goes - all my breeders are very sound- brrn tested by a orthapedic vet specialist - but have had 2 pups crop up with it mildly from sound parents - so I know it does happen. I feel the knee by extending the leg and putting gentle pressure on the knee it moves very slightly hardly at all - can Xrays give you a better indication. I know mild patella - grade one is not a real problem if it does not progress to a higher grade - looking back to my first mini poodle I later realised this is what she had - she was a pet only - and would walk 4 steps and then do a hop on the back leg - I always thought this was just her "funny" walk - that is going back 20 years now. The girl I would consider letting him go to if its not too risky has rock sound patellas. Any advice would be so welcome from those experienced in this - but please no nasty replies making out I'm some nogooder with no concern for the pups produced - this is not the case. Just hope someone may be able to give me an honest answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I would definitely run him on. I know sfa about mini poodles but in my breed they can look as if they have LP because of the way they are growing. See how he is when he is a bit older, and get a specialist vet with knowledge of the breed to see him. I would also get a chiro to have a look - jusr in case. If the LP is confirmed, I definitely wouldn't be breeding with him. desexed for sure If he was the best dog in the world, I still wouldn't. Health and soundness is so important. He might not throw it, but then again, every pup in the litter might have really bad LP and be condemned to a life of misery and pain. so sorry this has happened to you - what a disaster. Hang on to him, and cross your fingers!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini girl Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 Thanks for your words of encouragement - it is so dissapointing - but will try and think its an ill wind that blows no body good and if he is ment to be desexed and just a lovely pet so be it - he will give someone happiness I'm sure -no matter how much I'd love to use him - I must agree with you its just not worth the chance of letting him sire a litter if its proven - to be honest I don't hold out a lot of hope but will go the full 12 months and have him evaluated - my old poodle that I owned and loved for 16 years lived her life without any pain or treatment ever being needed so a mild case can still make for a happy pet I guess. Trouble is I've grown to love the little guy and will miss him if I do let him go but I have my full quota of dogs and it just doesn't make good sence to hold onto him. Does anyone know about Xrays for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 An X ray can show you whether its caused by deformity or abnormality in the patella grove which is sometimes too shallow and this allows the patella to jump out or [luxate] out of the grove sideways causing the leg to sort of lock up. When this happens the patella can’t come back to normal until the muscle relaxes. This is most likely to be a genetic issue and dogs with this type of patella problem shouldn’t be bred with regardless of how they are graded. If its not caused by a deformity then there is some suggestion that nutrition can make the muscle and the ligaments function better and be less prone to slipping with suggestions of feeding a diet with little processing and board certified Aloe Vera juice. If I were in your position I would X ray to answer the question on whether the joint is deformed and the grove is not too shallow before I made any decision. This will tell you if it’s a deformity, whether it has been caused by an injury or perhaps just may need a nutritional tweak before the slipping causes damage to the joint. If it shows as no deformity I would feed him the correct diet and re test again in 6 months time. I wouldnt breed him if he is not all better then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Desex the dog & put him in a new home or keep him as a pet. This problem is an awful thing as you say there is no genetic test & despite everything it can just crop up. Probably because somewhere along the line someone said Its only a grade 1 & this dog is so good for breeding or it can be bred out If it crops up in pups or later generations its an expensive operation & can develop to other problems in the dogs skeleton if left or severe. Your conscience says don't do it is in your post. Well don't & then you can rest easy & know that you are doing your very best for the breed & what you are comfortable with. Isn't it just so disappointing when the pup is everything you want & then this happens. Walked in your shoes, its the pits. Start again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angelsun Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 On a young toy sized breed, a grade one patella can and often will strengthen to the point that even under manipulation, often will not displace. This can take quite a while as the tendons strengthen and the muscles around the leg mature and sound up. I would not be tossing this boy out, not for a long shot, nor rule him out in the long run even with a grade one, if he is an otherwise excellant representative of the breed. I can't find whether you mention it was in one leg or both...this also will make a huge difference in my opinion. I would also seek out a second opinion. Jed, I think youre confusing slipping patella with Leggs Perthes which is the deformation of the femoral head and in fact a completely different situation and yes, desex would be the only option and surgery would probably have to happen depending on the severity of the deformation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 On a young toy sized breed, a grade one patella can and often will strengthen to the point that even under manipulation, often will not displace. This can take quite a while as the tendons strengthen and the muscles around the leg mature and sound up.I would not be tossing this boy out, not for a long shot, nor rule him out in the long run even with a grade one, if he is an otherwise excellant representative of the breed. I can't find whether you mention it was in one leg or both...this also will make a huge difference in my opinion. I would also seek out a second opinion. Jed, I think youre confusing slipping patella with Leggs Perthes which is the deformation of the femoral head and in fact a completely different situation and yes, desex would be the only option and surgery would probably have to happen depending on the severity of the deformation. No, angelsun, I am not confused. And if it is a luxating patella, I would do exactly what I said. Patella luxation can be medial or lateral, and it can be caused by shallowness of the groove, a twist in the femur, or incorrect attachment of the ligament. It can also be caused by under development of the muscles etc. In the latter case, it is not true LP, although it is often diagnosed as such. It may improve as the dog grows, and if so, he can be bred with. My opinion is that if the patella is still luxating at 12 months, whatever grade, he should not be bred with. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PomsNZ Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Firstly, was it caused by an injury? If genetic, then that really sucks! I most likely would not use if genetic, but then there are no tests to make sure its one or the other! If however, it stayed grade 1 and caused no problem, with all his litter mates all passed, then id be tempted to put him to a bitch with good patellas. grade 1 can be cuased by injury to the knee, especially at a young age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Firstly, was it caused by an injury? If however, it stayed grade 1 and caused no problem, with all his litter mates all passed, then id be tempted to put him to a bitch with good patellas. grade 1 can be cuased by injury to the knee, especially at a young age. How on earth are breeders supposed to eliminate this problem if common opinion is that it is ok to breed with a grade 1 ? Unless the dog has had its patellas checked recently & then was seen to injure itself & taken straight to the vet & had them checked on the spot there is no way of knowing this is not genetic. There are plenty of dogs to breed from without this fault so why do it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PomsNZ Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 I knew someone would knock me back but oh well lol. I dont have that many studs TO get access too for one. If i lived in oz then sure, i could but the limited gene pool here in NZ means im limited anyways. No, i cannot afford to import all the time, done that and the dog ended up monochord, useless to me. THAT was genetic... waste of all that money down the drain, and We are saving to get another one im time. Secondly, if the dog was ideal in every other way, the patella never progressed, and you put her to a rock solid girl, I most likely would. she said the dog was great in other ways... nice head etc. Unfortunately in my breed, patellas are common, most often caused by injury, tiny wee dogs jumping or being dropped... not saying its NOT genetic becuase yes, it IS a problem genetically and YES i do realise that, and no i wouldnt breed from one who i was sure had inherited the problem. Sorry if i am in the wrong breed/not rich enough etc, thats your problem, not mine. I health test all my breeding dogs, but we do not have the resources available to us (and what newbie does) to just go get another one if I was in that situation. Its a bugger it happened in the first place. Not sure if you knew, but here ARE other grades, up to grade 4 or 5 depending on vet. Grade 2 is not ok to breed with, grade 3 and grade 4 need surgery. grade 0 is perfect. grade 1 does not always progress and a dog can live with grade 1 with no problem in its life. grade 2 is more likely to progress and is not ok to breed with. grade 3 needs surgery. grade 4 is worst there is We eliminate the problem by not breeding with any dog over a grade 2, progress has been made, but it is still rife in this breed. However seeing a dog with what you would presume is grade 3 going around the ring and WINNING, after the surgery the dog was bred from. I havent seen the puppys out in the ring for a while but Last time i seen them, there was no sign of any limping etc in the puppies. out of the 3 pups, all seemed ok. I heard that the patella was a accident, but no one really knows.... the dog went in show as well, and won many awards. (NOT my dog!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini girl Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 Thank you for you very informed advice - think I will just let him go to 12 months then have the examination and also get some Xrays done - I reallly want to know the outcome even if its that he does not sire pups and I either keep him as my pet or sell him to a good home - but after living in a pack of 5 don't know how he would adapt to life as a single dog especially to those who work- but I',m going to just wait it out - by May i"ll have an anser so hope its good news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 Thank you for you very informed advice - think I will just let him go to 12 months then have the examination and also get some Xrays done - I reallly want to know the outcome even if its that he does not sire pups and I either keep him as my pet or sell him to a good home - but after living in a pack of 5 don't know how he would adapt to life as a single dog especially to those who work- but I',m going to just wait it out - by May i"ll have an anser so hope its good news. He will be fine to rehome if that is what you decide to do. Poodles adapt very well to new situations, it is us that has the issue i usually make sure they have another poodle or small dog to live with and that makes the transition so much easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puppoochi Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 According to one of my groomer friends, loose patellas are rife in both toy and mini poodles. I know of one particular breeder (who I have no respect for and shall remain nameless) that has a bitch with very loose patellas, did that stop her from breeding this bitch. NO. Yet, this particular person is continually spreading untrue rumours about other dogs and people as well for that matter. Are they in a position of power. You betcha. Only one answer. MANDATORY TESTING!!!!!! The ANKC have a lot to answer for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wags Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Interested to get some other breeders opinion as to what to do in my situation - I am a registered breeder for a few years now trying to do the best possible - but purchased a beautiful pup from New Zealand to add as a future stud - he is a lovely boy now 9 months old - good composition, head, colour but at 15 weeks took him for shots at the vet and he told me he had mild patella - this really was devistating news and no way I could send him back would cost me $1000 just to ship him back to his breeder - I don't blame the breeder as I know patella can skip up to 6 generations and I feel I was just plain unlucky - she asked me to run him on till 12 months and see if it really developed or was just a puppy thing. I have agreed to do this and if it is confirmed at 12 months what to do - this is my delima - should I have him desexed and sell him to a good home or risk one litter with him and see the outcome- my conscience tells me don't do it but what I would like to know is what are the chances of getting good pups from him? Has anyone had experience with this? He is very sound in every other way and the most beautiful temperament. When the vet looked at him he thought it only a mild case grade one - I've watched him closely - at 9 months he does not have any pain or tendency to limp does not even hop or carry the leg but does lift it sometimes when coming down stairs - the breeder has offered to refund me half of my cost to her if I do find out he does have patella when 12 months old - its such an awful thing Patella no tests for it as far as DNA goes - all my breeders are very sound- brrn tested by a orthapedic vet specialist - but have had 2 pups crop up with it mildly from sound parents - so I know it does happen. I feel the knee by extending the leg and putting gentle pressure on the knee it moves very slightly hardly at all - can Xrays give you a better indication. I know mild patella - grade one is not a real problem if it does not progress to a higher grade - looking back to my first mini poodle I later realised this is what she had - she was a pet only - and would walk 4 steps and then do a hop on the back leg - I always thought this was just her "funny" walk - that is going back 20 years now. The girl I would consider letting him go to if its not too risky has rock sound patellas.Any advice would be so welcome from those experienced in this - but please no nasty replies making out I'm some nogooder with no concern for the pups produced - this is not the case. Just hope someone may be able to give me an honest answer. a puppy can often have a wobbly Grade 1 patella during growth spurts that corrects itself after yet another growth spurt. The more knowledgable vets will advise you of this. 9 months is getting to the age though where they tend to feel that it might be a more permanent problem. I'd still run him on until he's had another growth spurt and check it out then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 According to one of my groomer friends, loose patellas are rife in both toy and mini poodles. I know of one particular breeder (who I have no respect for and shall remain nameless) that has a bitch with very loose patellas, did that stop her from breeding this bitch. NO. Yet, this particular person is continually spreading untrue rumours about other dogs and people as well for that matter. Are they in a position of power. You betcha.Only one answer. MANDATORY TESTING!!!!!! The ANKC have a lot to answer for I presume you are talking about mandatory testing of the parents? Most breeders have the pups checked at vaccination. Unfortunately, dogs with no patella problems can throw problems. I don't have a problem with testing - I do it anyhow. Medial luxation is usually from hereditary causes - lateral from acquired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizT Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 You mention that you had the puppy diagnose with LP at 15 weeks and that he is now 9 months old. I guess 3 months isn't long to wait but if it's eating at you now why not take him to a different vet for a quick check to see if it's easily diagnsosed now??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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