koalathebear Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 Dju, that's a great site. I agree! What a wonderful site. Thanks Dju for the link :D That will sort of save me a lot of money as I spend a lot of money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 I know the guy who built it! I told him a lot of crazy dog ladies use it on a dog forum I belong to and he had a chuckle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niques Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 What an interesting sounding book! Especially the information on breed development. What is the author's background with the breed? Dju, that's a great site. I agree! What a wonderful site. Thanks Dju for the link :D That will sort of save me a lot of money as I spend a lot of money Thirded. I've been looking for a cheap copy of a certain book all afternoon and voila, that site found it for me at less than half the price of the cheapest I'd found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dju Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 No worries, Booko is my favorite site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lab_Rat Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 What an interesting sounding book! Especially the information on breed development. What is the author's background with the breed? Dju, that's a great site. I agree! What a wonderful site. Thanks Dju for the link :D That will sort of save me a lot of money as I spend a lot of money Thirded. I've been looking for a cheap copy of a certain book all afternoon and voila, that site found it for me at less than half the price of the cheapest I'd found. Niques - Tony Parsons established his Kelpie stud Karrawarra in 1950, which I believe still exists today! He has written three previous books dedicated to the Kelpie - The Australian Kelpie, The Working Kelpie and Training the Working Kelpie. I guess his interest and understanding of the breed and his background of being a journo and country bloke gave him the opportunity to put all this down for others to read about! I would dearly love to get hold of his three earlier books, especially Training............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 He also writes fiction, wrote the 'High Country' series of romantic novels set in country Australia, sort of an earlier version of Rachel Treasure type novels if you are into those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 Finished chapter 28 tonight. Some very provocative and thought-provoking topics. First of all, I'm not sure what Parsons means when he talks about 'culling'. For instance: "You will always breed some culls" and in another spot he says, don't worry if this dog doesn't work well, you can always cull it. I'm not sure if he means removing it from the breeding pool e.g. make it a pet, or if he literally means cull as in putting it down ... Secondly, the big contentious topic is his discussion of Show/bench Kelpies vs true working line Kelpies. He appears to have had some dealings with show Kelpies and even done some judging. There are some that regard the show Kelpie as being a totally different breed. On page 229, he says: "The first debate is whether the show Kelpie really is a different breed from the working Kelpie or whether, as the Bilsons have written: it's the same breed but developed for a different purpose." Then he says: "Before taking you back to where the show Kelpies come from, I'll briefly be the devil's advocate for the show Kelpie fraternity who believe that the show or bench Kelpie is a 'purer' Kelpie than the working strain dogs and, if that matters at all, they've got a point. In actual fact, 'purity' isn't worth spit if it isn't accompanied by genuine working ability. The show Kelpie people, or those passionate about their strain, believe that the working Kelpie is a crossbred dog, and to a certain extent, they're right. Many of the best working Kelpies, some of them immortal dogs and always described as Kelpie, were in fact part Border Collie. ... If you outcross your Kelpies to a different breed, either Border Collie or dingo, you change the makeup of the breed, which is what the supporters of the show Kelpie have said over the years; that is, that the working Kelpie is a crossbred dog and the show Kelpie is 'pure'." Very interesting. Also interesting was the discussion of how the show Kelpie has changed over the years: "Today, a show Kelpie is fairly identifiable in type and characterised mostly by its dark red or chocolate colour, but there have been show Kelpies over the years that would have passed muster as working Kelpie type dogs. One such dog was Grand Champion All Black, a black Kelpie owned by Mrs AF Parkes of Hornsby, NSW. I saw this dog when he was quite old and, as his picture shows, he had plenty of leg under him and he could move, too. And there were others. But the influence of city breeders began to tell in a number of ways: we find as we look at the pictures of Kelpies over the years that they began to lose their angulation and become straight in shoulder and straight in stifle, even though the standard describes what is desired." He then goes on to say that although a lot of show Kelpie breeders have dogs that have a degree of herding/working ability, that does not make it a 'true' working dog with true ability. I suspect there's a degree of snobbery on both sides, what's funny is that even even within the working Kelpie scene, there seems to be snobbery and dissent regarding true working Kelpies and the Kelpies bred for trial-work. Parsons says: "The primary consideration in judging a working dog is working ability! If working ability is non-existent, then a Kelpie is a Kelpie in name only... There may be some vestigial ability [in show Kelpies] so that the dogs may appar to be 'working' but the standard of work is far below those dogs that are not selected for looks." I'm not sure you can argue with that. Even if show Kelpies do have working ability, presumably that's a 'bonus' given that being a working dog is no longer their 'primary' purpose. It seems to be pretty clear that working Kelpies and show Kelpies have different purposes today. Then there are my two doggies - OH keeps joking that our two Kelpies could have been used to start a third line of Kelpies called the Pampered Couch Potato Kelpie In any case, not trying to start a debate - just always find the whole show/working line Kelpie debate quite, quite fascinating. Next, I found it funny that Parson remarks a couple of times that: "The ideal combination is a dog that runs lightly and holds its tongue up in the roof of its mouth". I am still wondering why it's the case that the perfect Kelpie runs while holding its tongue up in the roof of its mouth - does he mean the dog isn't panting while it's running? Finally, there was a topic that I've always found really interesting being the Kelpie/Border Collie comparison. Parsons is of course a Kelpie person, but he is very respectful of the Border Collie and very honest in the fact that the Kelpie is derived in large part from the Collie. When we went to the herding trials in Bredbo recently, it was the three dog trials and we were told that BCs were usually heaps better at it than Kelpies and Kelpies tended to be a bit crap at it - although there was one Kelpie there that did really well. I also find it interesting that people tend to be either Kelpie people or Border Collie people - when we took Elbie to be 'tested' for herding ability, the guy who did it was pro-BC all the way and said he'd never use a Kelpie on sheep because he preferred Border Collies. I guess I find the division quite interesting given how closely related the Kelpie and the Border Collie are. Parsons of course takes us back to 1920 and Bantry Girl, arguably the most famous Kelpie x border collie trial bitch in Australian history. Here she is: She was a yellow and white and although it was said that she was 7/8 Kelpie in breeding, her pedigree contained 4 crosses of Collie so she could hardly have been more Kelpie than Collie. Apparently "she worked more like a Kelpie than a Collie... " though and she was an important dog in the development of Australian Border Collies. Parsons says: "To me the most striking difference between Kelpie and Border Collie is in nature, temperament or mental attitude to work. This is a generalisation, of course, because there are wide differences within the breeds, but by and large the Kelpie lacks the degree of 'biddability' that is the hallmark of many Border Collies. In general, the Kelpie not only is more inclined to do things itself, but wants to do so. It does not like too much correction; it is by nature a fairly natural worker and once the rough edges are knocked off its waywardness it often feels it knows the job better than its boss." He then says: "As a South African correspondent put it to me: 'If you give a Border Collie a command, he will look at you and ask "What next?" If you give a Kelpie a command, he will look at you and ask: "What for?"" I also found the discussion interesting about how Border Collie breeders had access to better gene pools - they could get them from overseas but Kelpie breeders were largely limited by the Australian market because this is kind of where Kelpies come from etc. He also remarked that generally, Australian stockmen aren't as good/diligent as handlers of sheepdogs as their UK counterparts, don't spend the same time with their dogs or put in the same degree of training. All very thought-provoking stuff. 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J... Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 Parsons says:"To me the most striking difference between Kelpie and Border Collie is in nature, temperament or mental attitude to work. This is a generalisation, of course, because there are wide differences within the breeds, but by and large the Kelpie lacks the degree of 'biddability' that is the hallmark of many Border Collies. In general, the Kelpie not only is more inclined to do things itself, but wants to do so. It does not like too much correction; it is by nature a fairly natural worker and once the rough edges are knocked off its waywardness it often feels it knows the job better than its boss." He then says: "As a South African correspondent put it to me: 'If you give a Border Collie a command, he will look at you and ask "What next?" If you give a Kelpie a command, he will look at you and ask: "What for?"" I also found the discussion interesting about how Border Collie breeders had access to better gene pools - they could get them from overseas but Kelpie breeders were largely limited by the Australian market because this is kind of where Kelpies come from etc. He also remarked that generally, Australian stockmen aren't as good/diligent as handlers of sheepdogs as their UK counterparts, don't spend the same time with their dogs or put in the same degree of training. All very thought-provoking stuff. I will have to get a copy of this book - sounds really interesting. What I've quoted above is pretty much my experience with kelpies in a working sense - give them a job to do and they do it well - don't tell them how to do it because you'll be wasting your breath! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmkelpie Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) There are certainly some really interesting discussions! I loved the comment by the correspondent, in my experience so far this is very true Finished chapter 28 tonight. Some very provocative and thought-provoking topics. First of all, I'm not sure what Parsons means when he talks about 'culling'. For instance: "You will always breed some culls" and in another spot he says, don't worry if this dog doesn't work well, you can always cull it. I'm not sure if he means removing it from the breeding pool e.g. make it a pet, or if he literally means cull as in putting it down ... Unfortunately when he talks about culling he does mean killing the pup/dog. It happens all too often with working dogs Edited January 19, 2011 by cmkelpie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiechick Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 What I've quoted above is pretty much my experience with kelpies in a working sense - give them a job to do and they do it well - don't tell them how to do it because you'll be wasting your breath! What ???? You think mine fit this description in the agility ring ???? Even if I take the tunnel out of the equation ????? They do listen to what you want them to do, it's just that they think they are superior and can do it better, probably right in my case. You can borrow my book - if I ever get around to finishing it that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♥Bruno♥ Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) What I want to know is why your kelpies are so damn clean?!! Mine can't resist mud/water/sheep poo/dead animals/unidentifiable muck.... (Edit to Add - I realise yours are show kelpies, mine are working dogs) Culling is very common place. There is no home for a useless working dog. It wont become a family pet in town as it will always want to wander and work with stock. It can't live on the farm as it is untrustworthy and gets into mischief, and is an unwelcome distraction for working dogs and stock alike. It is a very sad fact, but very common Hence why kelpies should only be bred by people who know what they are breeding with and willing to put in the work to create a good working dog. Edited January 20, 2011 by ♥Bruno♥ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chezy Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 just having a look at stores and prices, the nile has it for $95.49 free shipping Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 What I want to know is why your kelpies are so damn clean?!! Mine can't resist mud/water/sheep poo/dead animals/unidentifiable muck.... (Edit to Add - I realise yours are show kelpies, mine are working dogs) Are you talking about MY doggies??? They're not show Kelpies! The red and tan is a WKC-registered Kelpie and the black and white mutt is a Kelpie/Border Collie cross - again working lines. They do get dirty but dirt seems to fall off of them. They don't actually work though, they're lazy pets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4Kelpies Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Mine are nearly always clean too. They can work sheep through muddy yards and look a mess but then dry off, shake themselves and are sleek and shiny again. My Caleb who has just turned 3 has had two baths in his life, that I can remember, but has no doggy odour and always seems clean. My dogs don't seem to be interested in rolling in poo and dead things the way my terrier used to be. Yes culling usually means shooting. I don't like the idea and I'm sure lots of lovely dogs have been killed unnecessarily, but it has resulted in a breed which is extremely sound and healthy with very few temperament problems. Dogs that might have been a nuisance in any way, whether through lack of working ability, aggression or unstable temperament, lack of stamina, trouble giving giving birth or any unsoundness were culled from breeding programs and only the healthiest and best workers survived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) Still making my way through the book. There were some very interesting chapters about the use of the Kelpie for cattle, goats and poultry. While Parsons thinks that Kelpies can be very good with cattle, he is very much against the Kelpie becoming and being used as an aggressive, hard-biting dog. He thinks that the Kelpie should be used for more humane management of cattle - control without violence. He quotes a cattleman and Kelpie breeder from Queensland who says about the Kelpie: "Other important canine traits for working large mobs of cattle under all climatic conditions include the basics of stamina and heart. No breed can match a good Kelpie for these traits nor do many other dogs possess that individuality that allows for a stockman to swell up with pride when his dogs somehow find and return with that feral herd in the gorge when all seemed lost, or 'speaks' from a blind gully to bring your attention to a paralysed calf down with scrub tick." An interesting and provocative topic in Chapter 31 is "The versatility of the Kelpie." On the one hand, Parsons is very proud of the fact that the Kelpie can be good at agility - on the other hand, it makes him worried. "On the face of it, there is nothing untoward in using Kelpies, even working-strain Kelpies for agility, or any other dog sport for that matter, except that it is not the purpose for which the breed was intended." He discusses the relative rareness of the Kelpie in agility in the UK but how more dogs are becoming successful and there is pride and wariness in the way he discusses the matter. He quotes someone named Chris Vaught, a former president of Working Kelpies Inc (USA) who says: There has been a lot of debate (at least within the US) of the use of Working Kelpies in Agility. Some folks are convinced that us Agility folk are going to be the end of the Working Kelpie as we know it. Thought I understand their point of view, I think it is somewhat born out of a misunderstanding of what Agility is all about and the types of skills that are taught and needed in the sport. Parsons isn't convinced. While he has no doubt that dogs of many working Kelpie strains would be able to master Agility work and equal the performance of Border Collies, he says: "it is the probability of many more Kelpies being used for Agility that cause some some concern. I have discussed this matter with some other Kelpie 'hard heads' and they have a similar concern. What is this concern? It is that breakaway families of working Kelpies will be bred solely for Agility and Flyball sports in much the same fashion as dogs of the working strains were taken up by show breeders followed by a deterioration of traditional working traits. It wouldn't take many generations for the same thing to happen should dogs be bred purely for Agility and not for working ability. It wouldn't apply where people like Chris vaught use their dogs for both working and Agility but it would certainly apply where they don't." Then he says: "... both myself and the 'hardheads' already referred to, wonder whether the stage has been reached when some form of abbreviated description should be allotted to genuine working dogs; that is, dogs that have shown herding ability. This may appear to be a radical suggestion but we have had enough problems with the bench/show Kelpie without being saddled with rising numbers of working Kelpies being hived off for dog sports. I have nothing against these sports and I like very much the idea of people using dogs constructively and for pleasure so long as it doesn't lead to a downgrading of working Kelpies to the long-term detriment of the genuine breeders of these dogs." Parsons clearly loves his breed a lot, hence how heated he gets about it. He thinks that the working Kelpie has suffered some 'huge' blows over the years due to a variety of factors. He concedes that the popularity of dog sports may mean that there is a potential to sell many more Kelpies but he's afraid that it will affect the reputation of the genuine working Kelpie: "But I know some Agility dogs will be owned by people who will never have any association with livestock, and the last thing I want for the working Kelpie is another group of suburbanites flogging off dogs not selected for working ability as genuine working Kelpies." The section about Kelpies as pets aka companion dogs is interesting. He doesn't like to use the word 'pet' because he 'hates' the word pet used in reference to Kelpies ... Interestingly he isn't rabidly opposed to the notion and thinks that Kelpies are no more difficult to look after than other breeds so long as they have the run of a decent-sized backyard and/or is exercised regularly. "Don't be deterred because someone has told you that a Kelpie would be out of place and unhappy in a backyard situation. It is entirely possible to keep a Kelpie happy in such a scenario by giving it time and reasonable exercise. But don't neglect it. A Kelpie will forgive almost anything but not forgetting that it exists." Edited January 23, 2011 by koalathebear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sallyandtex Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 What I want to know is why your kelpies are so damn clean?!! :DMine can't resist mud/water/sheep poo/dead animals/unidentifiable muck.... (Edit to Add - I realise yours are show kelpies, mine are working dogs) Are you talking about MY doggies??? They're not show Kelpies! The red and tan is a WKC-registered Kelpie and the black and white mutt is a Kelpie/Border Collie cross - again working lines. They do get dirty but dirt seems to fall off of them. They don't actually work though, they're lazy pets. Loving your conversation! I never thought I would be a self-confessed kelpie junkie My girl looks nice and shiny after a roll in the dirt after shaking, but i have to wash the salt off her (X2 every day) otherwise she's itchy! She tries to sneak away for a good roll in something on-the-nose unless i catch her out with a Uh-UH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 This book with its talk of bloodlines intrigued me. I have Hoover's papers that set out his pedigree back to his grandparents but for fun decided to look on the WKC bloodlines website to try to trace it back further to see what I can find. So far I've hit a wall at his great great great grandparents but I see that he has Scanlons, Riana, Karana in him. I like that his great-grandfather's name was Kinghayes Boof. Out of interest, what does S/BRED mean? OH keeps joking that I'm going to find out that Hoover has a distant descendent that was a cat or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Station Bred maybe? not totally sure on that though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 Station Bred maybe? not totally sure on that though Haven't found the answer on Google I take it Kaos is a nom de plume? There were a few Kaos there but I don't think any were yours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Yes Kaos is my dog's call name. His registered name is Avenpart Ontario (Avenpart Wump x Avenpart Lesky). You won't see him on your dog's pedigree as he is desexed and never sired a litter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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