Dingo's

[Keira&Phoenix]

Just be aware that pure bred dingos are extremely rare, and you are more likely to see a dingo/domestic hybrid. The hybrids can look almost identical to a purebred dingo with as far as i'm aware, little for the average person to go by for identification.

Actually this is untrue - most research to date suggests that purebred dingoes are common in remote and less populated areas such as WA, NT, SA. In NSW, Vic and QLD however there are large amounts of hybrids and fewer purebred animals. This does not mean that there are no purebred animals.

Unfortunately they probably aren't pure

Hopefully if the dingo rescue get to them, they can genetically test them and if they are pure find some breeding place for them.

Love dingoes, but they are heading the same way as the Tassie Tiger, won't be long till the pure ones are gone

Again - in WA I would actually expect them to be pure.

There is a huge captive population of purebred dingoes. There are so many that most wildlife parks desex them.

They are desexed in alot of zoo's because they don't want to breed them (alot of zoo's are phasing them out as they don't draw big crowds). Additionally alot of the sanctuaries cannot afford to breed extensively or even more than 1 litter a year as there are not enough homes (private or sanctuaries or zoos). This is why alot are desexed not because there are such large numbers.

I think this is very sad - the Dingo is Australia's top level and arguably native terrestiral carnivore - the removal of the dingo would lead to drastic and probably catastrophic changes in the ecosystems of Australia.

I kind of resent the notion of them going "the way of the Thylacine". The thylacine was a whole different deal all together. There are still purebred dingoes in captivity and likely will be for some time yet. They are in fact thought to be instrumental in the extinction of the thylacine on the mainland.

ETA If they are young 'uns it's likely they are dispersing and won't be around for long.

It is true they probably did play a role in the extinction of the Thylacine on the mainland - however it could have been humans as well and the Thylacine numbers were in decline before the dingo was thought to have arrived- there is simply no way to tell. However them being here 5000 years or more and now residing as the top-level carnivore suggests to me that they should be PROTECTED and treated as a native. They have been here a hell of alot longer than Europeans or any of the introduced species such as foxes, rabbits, cane toads etc. Of course everyone has their own opinion concerning this - but the scientific research stands that the dingo is VERY important to the native ecology of Australian in present day.

The eradication of the Thylacine was a political move. There was a bounty due to pressure from sheep farmers, even though there was no evidence they were actually killing sheep. They were not "slowly eradicated by people". They were systematically and quickly wiped out. The Dingo is not being eradicated. It's being genetically diluted. Not directly by people, just by the human love of dogs.

Similar to how the dingo is being wiped out - in its true form - today. Culling, baiting etc does NOTHING to keep dingo populations in check as most farmers believe them to - in actual fact it leads to increased stock predation, increased population sizes (as pack structure is gone thereby all females are breeding not just the Alpha's).

In fact the best way of reducing stock predation is to make better fences, use lifestock protectors like Alpacs/llamas or Maramma Sheep dogs and leave dingo pack stucture alone. - they will self-regulate their population sizes and only the Alpha animals will breed.

Preserving dingo pack structure also greatly decreases the chance of hybrids.

It is still widely accepted that they were instrumental in the extinction of Thylacines and Tasmanian Devils on the mainland. Like it or lump it.

It's obviously not that widely accepted - they may have had a role in the devils decline on the mainland but as I have read the Thylacine was already in decline. Additionally you/we cannot rule out the actions of humans - it's unlikely to have been just dingoes. They are treated as a scapegoat for almost everything - yet most of the allegations blamed on dingoes are untrue.

Kind of sad that the mindset is if there is some in captivity that they are fine and going well, if an entire species is only surviving in captivity then they hardly doing that great. The only true pure strain of dingo exist either in captivity or Fraser Island. Once domestic dogs get to Fraser (and it will happen one day) then all thats left is in captivity, but what a waste......they will never be able to be released as there is nothing stopping the hybrids from breeding with them again. The species is too be extinct in the wild.

I don't think it's right to compare them to Thylacines is all. Thylacines were for starters in their own genus. Dingoes are a subspecies. There are several pariah dogs around the world that are very similar to them. Thylacines were systematically eradicated whereas Dingoes are suffering from genetic dilution. IMO there is nothing that can be done about this state of affairs, so we may as well move on. The dingo will continue to exist in some form even if that form is more like a domestic dog than the dingoes we know today. It's just evolution. Species are not static. If the "pure" dingo is indeed the evolutionary pinnacle of wild dogs in Australia, then even with the genetic dilution the population will eventually drift back to look and behave much like current dingoes. If the dingo is not the evolutionary pinnacle, then a new type will dominate. As much as I'd like to preserve pure dingoes, the only way to do it is through captivity, which is already being done.

I agree that it's sad that the thought of 'real' dingoes surviving in captivity is the reason why it's okay to not protect them.

Dingoes may be classed as a subspecies but so are most wild wolves or wild/pariah dogs - most of which are PROTECTED in their native habitats.

Genetic dilution is a HUGE problem for many wild animals for which there is a domesticated form i.e. wild cats and domestic cats, wolves and domestic dogs, coyotes and domestic dogs, buffalo and cattle...

The dingo will not continue to exist if genetic dilution is occuring - it is no longer a dingo. It is by definition no longer a dingo. A dingo is the native wild dog of Australia not a domesticated dog. It has been wild for atleast 5000 years and likely was feral long before that (perhaps some were tamed but its also likely they were brought to Australia as a food source by travelers not as a pet or companion). They have unique biology, behaviors and even structural differences.

Hybrids are not the same as dingoes - they are often larger, breed 2 times a year rather than 1, are believed to predate on stock more than dingoes (probably because they either don't have the wild instincts or have not been taught how to hunt properly).

Dingoes can be preserved in the wild - nearly 90% of wild canines in remote areas are dingoes rather than hybrids. Additionally places like Fraser Island should be preserved with their wild dingoes intact.

It frustrates me that people think its okay to shoot a wild animal/carnivore for killing prey (stock) - if the animal was a tiger or lion or wolf one would think that the carnivore would be forgiven - but actually most of the times wild carnivores are shot because they kill livestock no matter their importance/rarity.

Even rare endangered leopards are shot for daring to kill life stock. It is absolutely ridiculous. The carnivores were present before us humans with our life stock and farming practices.

Now i'm not saying that I have no sympathy for farmers who have to deal with carnivores killing their stock - obviously its horrible and very damaging financially - but sometimes we have to step back and look at the whole picture or find ways of dealing with the issue rather than simply reaching for our guns.

In response to the OP - I would contact the WA dingo society and see what they say. However they may not have the funds to do anything - alot of these sanctuaries/groups are only scraping by.

Thank you MalteseLuna this was a very informative post and a lot of what I feel and what I would have liked to say is in here but you have worded it much better than I ever would have.

Very few ancient wild dogs still survive we need to protect these animals. It is sad we feel it is ok to eradicate them when it will have a huge impact on Australia and not to mention they deserve to live as much as any domestic dog or tigers, lions etc. Or that is ok to kill the ones in the wild because we have dingoes in captivity. We are living on what was their land we should respect that.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I look on ARAZPA later, but the number in captivity is too small to maintain them as a species for very long. Then there is the issue of the different phenotypes from different regions, which makes each subset captive population even smaller. I'm pretty sure Wilton has devised a very accurate method to determine purity based on phenotype of living dingos now, whereas before you had to have the actual cleaned skull. I'd talk to the WA dingo people though, but as others have said, not much they can do and you can only hope they hurry up and move away.

[MalteseLuna]

I look on ARAZPA later, but the number in captivity is too small to maintain them as a species for very long. Then there is the issue of the different phenotypes from different regions, which makes each subset captive population even smaller. I'm pretty sure Wilton has devised a very accurate method to determine purity based on phenotype of living dingos now, whereas before you had to have the actual cleaned skull. I'd talk to the WA dingo people though, but as others have said, not much they can do and you can only hope they hurry up and move away.

Your right there are too few in captivity to maintain them as a species for long - already alot of lines have high inbreeding etc.

There is the issue of different phenotypes - i hear there might be some research starting on that

Dr. Wilton's method is quite accurate - and is useable on live animals. It's what most groups/councils/National parks use to assess purity.

[corvus]

It is true they probably did play a role in the extinction of the Thylacine on the mainland - however it could have been humans as well and the Thylacine numbers were in decline before the dingo was thought to have arrived- there is simply no way to tell.

Who cares? I don't. Whether or not the Dingo was instrumental in the extinction of marsupial carnivores on the mainland is irrelevant, now. I just objected to the Dingo decline being compared to the Thylacine. I don't think it's a fair comparison. End of story. You can argue with that if you like, but I don't know to what end 'cause I'm not gonna change my mind. And who cares if I do or don't? It was a comment on my opinion. It does not represent some underground movement of people that are blaming Dingoes for extinctions and using that as an excuse to leave them to their own devices or something.

I agree that it's sad that the thought of 'real' dingoes surviving in captivity is the reason why it's okay to not protect them.

It's not. I never said we shouldn't protect them. No one has said that. I said I did not see a solution to the problem so there's no point crying about it.

The dingo will not continue to exist if genetic dilution is occuring - it is no longer a dingo. It is by definition no longer a dingo.

I'm not sure which definition you're talking about, there. Naming species is getting pretty messy with cryptic species popping up wherever anyone cares to look and new techniques meaning we can pick up speciation before we see much difference in the actual animals. Species are arbitrary, though. Evolution is dynamic. Naming species is just like taking a photo of a moving object. My point was the genetics of the Dingo will probably shift whether with help from domestic dogs or not as their environment changes.

Dingoes can be preserved in the wild - nearly 90% of wild canines in remote areas are dingoes rather than hybrids.

Then I guess the problem isn't as dire as we were all thinking. Good news!

[erinonthefarm]

MalteseLuna, even though you have not cited any of your references, lets say your argument is true.....

The point is in this instance, whatever these dogs are, the chances of somebody actually being interested to go to remote WA and remove them for genetic testing to determine their purity is slim, wouldn't you agree? Far more chance that drawing attention to them will result in somebody (Parks, farmer, police) destroying them, which was my point.

The OP was looking for advice as to what to do as they appeared in poor condition (though yet to see photos), getting into a theological debate on the dingos importance, purity, location ect is really OT and far from conclusive at this point.

[gemibabe]

Peoples, I'm home on break now so no pics for atleast another 2 weeks.

The dogs are still there and I wont be calling anyone until I've posted the pics up here and like someone mentioned, highly unlikely anyone will come out to test them...

Great reading though, have to say i've been educated somewhat so thanks lol

[Runner]

The point is in this instance, whatever these dogs are, the chances of somebody actually being interested to go to remote WA and remove them for genetic testing to determine their purity is slim, wouldn't you agree?

Dogs all across this state- and even in remote, hard to get to, barely seen humans areas were dna tested in the last few years. The info is in and being collaborated and results will be done by the end of the year for the public. Ive seen some lovely looking "pure" dingoes close to town, and yet seen some of the strangest looking mixed dogs way out that would be lucky to see 1 person a year

Try telling pastoralists to leave the wild dogs to breed up, that they 'self regulate' and wont touch stock is a load of crap. When you lose $150,000 worth of sheep in less than 12 months- that it wasnt the wild dogs or 'well their alpha must have died'. The way to see stock losses reduce or stop is to control the wild dog population.

Gemibabe- these dogs will be hard to rehome into a sanctuary, they are grown wild dogs, I have seen how wild 5wk old pups turn out rehomed into various station and country town settings and they didnt settle well over their lives, let alone young adults. You are better off leaving them be for everyones sake.

Dont get me wrong I love looking at them, seeing them in the right areas and have plenty of photos of them in their day to day life. But without people providing waters (for roo) and food (stock) they wouldnt be in some of the places they are- and definately not in the numbers we currently see them in Aus.

[MalteseLuna]

Dogs all across this state- and even in remote, hard to get to, barely seen humans areas were dna tested in the last few years. The info is in and being collaborated and results will be done by the end of the year for the public.

I am well aware of this - it will be very interesting to see updated figures/data

Try telling pastoralists to leave the wild dogs to breed up, that they 'self regulate' and wont touch stock is a load of crap. When you lose $150,000 worth of sheep in less than 12 months- that it wasnt the wild dogs or 'well their alpha must have died'.

I just said that the scientifc literature suggests that controlling wild canine popoluations via current methods acutally have the opposite to the desired effect. I never said dingoes dont take stock - they surely do as would ANY predator. Hoewver new management methods need to be developed instead of just worsening the problem by using outdated and invalid management methods - population control via. Culling and baiting does NOT solve the problem.

Corvus - im not crying lol just trying to summarise alot of the reading i have done and show the other side

[gemibabe]

here are some pics of them... long time coming!

[OSoSwift]

They look in very good condition to me and I am not 100% sure they look pure, but comparing them to stock internet photos they may be.

Edited February 28, 2011 by OSoSwift

[Keira&Phoenix]

Yeah hard to tell if they are pure but they are pretty. They look in great condition. I would leave them be and not tell anyone else they are there.

Eta for comparison here is a pic i took of a Dingo on Fraser last year, gorgeous specimen

Edited February 28, 2011 by Keira&Phoenix

[KOE]

leave them alone they are a wild dog, and nature will deal her hand.

People should not interfere with nature, too many bloody do gooders as it is.

Edited February 28, 2011 by KOE

[OSoSwift]

Thay are being left alone at this point and the person came on here to make sure they were doing the right thing, so they will be left alone.

Yes there are too many do gooders in all areas, but not this time.

[gemibabe]

problem is they are adapting to the 'easy life' - eating grasshoppers around the lighting plants, scavaging for food when there is plenty of cows and donkey's or are they not that kind of killer?....the photos are of the parents.. the pups are in a worse condition. although they are about 8-12mnths old. Hard to tell really....just can't get a decent picture of them

[OSoSwift]

They are normally quite lean and the parents look like they are caryying more condition than I have normally seen.

I would think cattle and donkeys would be too big for them. Calves and foals yes, adults no.

They would kill the babies and rabbits and other smaller animals, but they are very good scavengers

[Are You Serious Jo]

I've got a bit of experience with pure dingos and sorry, but they don't look pure.

[Lady Flying Furball]

Thanks for posting the pictures. Their faces look quite similiar to the photo from Fraser Island, but they look a different colour...more grey.

[gwenneth1]

Unforunately some of the dingoes areas of natural resources where they can move around and pick better areas to hunt/pick is becoming less and less.

Human hand via encroachment of resources leads to lean pickings>starvation at times and nothing deserves to die like that. I remember that last big drought out nth west knocked the native species of roos/emus around and the ones too weak to keep going could have been left to slowly die with no interference then what nature intended. Lucky for some of those poor sods human interference was in the form of a merciful bullet.

I'm sad there hasn't been more effort by government bodies to preserve the pure dingo, I feel it will be looked back upon with regret.

[Keira&Phoenix]

problem is they are adapting to the 'easy life' - eating grasshoppers around the lighting plants, scavaging for food when there is plenty of cows and donkey's or are they not that kind of killer?....the photos are of the parents.. the pups are in a worse condition. although they are about 8-12mnths old. Hard to tell really....just can't get a decent picture of them

When you say worse condition, do you mean their hip bones sticking out etc? If so, I know you cannot see it but that is exactly how the dingoes on Fraser looked, so don't fret it is natural because they only eat when they can catch something (unlike our pampered pooches) and things like grass hoppers are high in protein but nothing else so it doesn't really put fat on them.

[MalteseLuna]

I've got a bit of experience with pure dingos and sorry, but they don't look pure.

Morphological methods of distinguishing dingoes from hybrids are extremely unreliable. I wouldn't be confident of stating either way without a DNA test quite frankly. That is the main problem with the culling - there is no reliable way of choosing how to shoot hybrids only and alot of information concerning the dingo is biased and colloquial - not based on scientific research.