People Who Just Don't Understand...

[Fatsofatsoman]

To be fair I've always been quite lucky when taking Boonie out - parents will always ask first whether their child can give him a pat and always get the kid to approach slowly and then will show the kid where to pat. I suppose I've yet to say to anyone 'no' as he'll only ever slobber someone to death so haven't had to deal with a parent spurned.

[haven]

But I also have to agree with a couple of other posters, perhaps in future responding to the child who wants to pat your dog would result in a better outcome?

I'm sorry but I think that people have the right to respond as they wish, not as everyone else wants them too. Sorry if the best outcome for the education of the child is not at the forefront of my mind. As a dog owner, my only responsibility and concern is my dog, and making sure my dog is happy, comfortable and not placed in a position where he/she might do damage to someone. Ok Ella would probably only lick a child, but I don't want her to ever be scared by a fast approaching, badly behaved child and change to a timid dog that may snap.

Also, if it is a child asking to pat your dog, please answer the child and not the adult. I hate it when my children ask an adult a question and the adult responds to me and not my children, if the child is old enough to ask a question, they are old enough to understand the answer :D

This is not a fair ask from a stranger who may not like or understand children. I don't have kids. I don't even know at what age they begin to walk or talk, let alone at what age they understand. We 'non-child people' don't know that if a child is old enough to ask, it's old enough to understand. I can see this scenario going horribly wrong, with the 'but WHY?' response coming out, and all this going on with the child a mere lunge away from the dog's space, or the child perhaps understanding part of the answer, but not all, because I have used words it has not yet learned. Just because a child can ask "Can I pat the doggie?" does NOT indicate that it will understand all the implications of your "No, he's scared of people he doesn't know" To me, this says "He might bite if you do" but the child won't necessarily be old enough to make the connection between 'scared' and 'bite' and I am in no position to judge the development level of your child or anyone else's.

Just to be clear, I do agree that you have every right to respond as you wish in terms of how you deal with the child. The suggestion that you speak to them and not their parents is because in my experience, as a dog owner, a dog trainer and now as a parent, kids as more likely to have better manners around dogs and ask before patting (and accept the answer with good grace) than their parents are. I suggested that in future, when faced with a pushy parent, dealing with the child might be easier because they may be more likely to just accept a no answer. It's not simply about educating the child, it's about improving the future of dog ownership for everyone. I totally agree that your first and foremost concern ought to be for the safety and well being of your dog.

I think it is fair enough to respond to a child that is talking to you and not his or her parents but it is very situational too. Just because you don't like children isn't a good enough reason to be rude and ignore them when they talk to you IMO. It would be incredibly rude to ignore and adult speaking to you and I don't think that is any different when it is a child. Your point about not knowing their developmental level is sound, but you don't have to explain why, you just have to say yes or no and kids learn the meaning of those two things well before they start talking. The situational aspect comes in depending on the parent, are they present, are the supervising, are they going to take your lead or are they rude and pushy like the parent described in the OP, absent altogether or just not paying attention. As you said your concern is your dog, for a child to pat my dog I'd want the parent there ready and waiting attentively to control their child just as I control my dog and take them away or back up what I say in terms of how to pat the dog and when enough is enough etc. I guess it depends on the dog too. My old girl Nova is an attention whore and an old hand at coming to training with me for demos (or just the hell or if) performing tricks for people at the park or at expos and events and being handled by children at places like expos. I would never ever allow a child to pat her unsupervised (by me) because I know that any dog can and will bite under certain circumstances and it's my job to protect her from ever feeling like she needs to do that. But my point is, she is very well trained and socialised and I'm very confident that I could tell her to sit, drop or roll over and she will happily be patted by all and sundry. If I had a younger dog with a less stable temperament that was untested then I might feel less confident about my ability to control the dog under certain circumstances. Being able to trust my dog means that if the parents don't control their child appropriately I can step in without also worrying about what my dog is doing, if I didn't have that trust in her then I would be saying no to pats a lot more than I do, because I can't control my dog and their child at the same time.

If my Daughter wants to pat someone's dog she will ask, but I'm right there with her and ready to respond appropriately whether the owner says yes or no. Keep in mind though that I have the benefit of qualifications in training and behaviour and years of experience as a trainer and instructor, so well before my child gets close enough to want to pat a dog I've already assessed it's suitability and I'm watching it's body language and how well the owner can control the dog as we approach. If I see anything untoward I won't let her pat the dog and I can tell you that I've had heaps of people offer their dogs up to be patted by my Daughter when I can clearly see that the dog isn't crazy about the idea

Sorry that this has blown out to be quite a ramble, I'm coming off the edge of a migraine and not able to communicate what I mean more concisely right now

ETA, to be fair, I do understand that some people have very little experience with children at all as hey don't have their own, may not have any in the family and might be an only child. I had the benefit of growing up with 6 siblings, most of which are younger than me, and various foster kids so while I wouldn't call myself a child lover I generally don't feel uncomfortable with them and have no qualms about telling them to go away (politely) if warranted or telling them off if they are out of line. I don't really care what the parent thinks of that, if they were there to parent their kids then I wouldn't have to, beggars can't be choosers and all that

Edited April 15, 2011 by haven

[sandgrubber]

I got a good bite to the face at four years old (Irish setter . . . I was probably pulling its beautiful long read coat). It didn't harm me in the long term.

I love it when kids want to pet my girls. They love kids, and I think it good socialization. I have to warn the parents that the young one is bouncy and enthusiastic, and may knock the child down (probably good training for the child). I think my dogs instinctually know that kids are like puppies . . . and they hold back and treat gently.

If everyone pulls their dogs away from kids, where is the next generation of dog lovers going to come from?

Mum never let me pat other dogs that weren't mine. She always used to say it wasn't safe, although i never liked it lol but she never gave in and i guess i really respect other people when i ask to pat there dogs if they say no i reply saying thats okay and i walk away haha i dont take it to heart so i think parents have to teach there kids to ask before demanding to pat someones dog.

I was always taught 1. not to pat strange dogs - actually, not to go NEAR strange dogs lol and 2. to NEVER put my face near a dogs face...

Edited April 15, 2011 by sandgrubber

[Henrietta]

I have one dog that simply is not allowed near children and the other who just adores children (and puppies for that matter). I've actually never run into problems of this kind, but then I am usually shunning all other human and canine life forms when I'm out with the little dog. I've had kids pat the older girl, but it's not that common and I'm always aware that it may happen. Most kids have seemed to ask as far as I can remember.

I am grateful to my parents. I managed to grow up without ever being bitten (perhaps dumb luck?), but at the same time having a healthy respect for, and knowing how to act around dogs.

I remember walking to the shops with my friend in high school when she approached a dog that was tied up. It was barking and carrying on and when my friend went closer, the dog was much more uncomfortable. I told her that the dog was not happy and she should not approach it. By the time she heeded my warning, the dog was displaying pretty obvious signals.

Now, don't get me started on folks that tie their dogs up - I detest the practice and I believe it is a real risk factor for attacks and a safety risk for everyone. But, the point of my story was that my 17 year old friend could not tell that the dog was very uncomfortable. No idea. And the signals were not subtle. I think it's so important for parents to teach their kids the basics, even if they are not 'dog' people.