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Steve

Wrinkly Dogs Get Nip And Tuck

47 posts in this topic

thanks Nek. The dog on the front page doesn't look that wrinkly to me, but some of them in the current breed list are very wrinkly indeed.

For the life of me I can't understand the "I love this breed so I'll breed dogs that have to have surgery just so they can see" mentality. I put them in the same boat as BYB's deliberately breeding runts and marketing them as teacups. Putting looks/trends before health is unethical no matter which way you look at it.

I completely agree.

IMO no one who loves dogs could breed them knowing that they were destined to be in pain or to require an op to see properly.

What have we become when we think it is acceptable to do a preventative eye op on a puppy rather than breed a puppy that did not need the op?

Edited by Jaxx'sBuddy

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There are a lot of breeds requiring entropion surgery these days. Sometimes even those with almost no wrinkles will still need it. Lower lid entropion is very common in rottweilers and they don't have wrinkles.

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Steve   
There are a lot of breeds requiring entropion surgery these days. Sometimes even those with almost no wrinkles will still need it. Lower lid entropion is very common in rottweilers and they don't have wrinkles.

Yes thats right but that doesnt make it O.K. in any breed regardless of whether the cause is the same for all of them or not.

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There are a lot of breeds requiring entropion surgery these days. Sometimes even those with almost no wrinkles will still need it. Lower lid entropion is very common in rottweilers and they don't have wrinkles.

Yes thats right but that doesnt make it O.K. in any breed regardless of whether the cause is the same for all of them or not.

I'm not saying it is but saying the wrinkles cause the entropion is incorrect. It may exacerbate it but plenty of breeds that don't have wrinkles have entropion issues.

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Steve   
There are a lot of breeds requiring entropion surgery these days. Sometimes even those with almost no wrinkles will still need it. Lower lid entropion is very common in rottweilers and they don't have wrinkles.

Yes thats right but that doesnt make it O.K. in any breed regardless of whether the cause is the same for all of them or not.

I'm not saying it is but saying the wrinkles cause the entropion is incorrect. It may exacerbate it but plenty of breeds that don't have wrinkles have entropion issues.

I dont think that any one is saying that the wrinkles cause the entropian - the size of the eye and shape etc are in there too but wrinkles contribute to and exacerbate this condition in this breed just as various things contribute to the problem in other breeds. either way its un acceptable to breed dogs which are getting this many dogs affected with any genetic condition without taking steps to stop it rather than simply pinning and tucking it before it damages the eye too much.

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poochmad   

Years ago I remember hearing that the breed was becoming more wrinkled, because people wanted the wrinkles to last forever. 10 years ago, the breed would 'grow' into the wrinkles which in my opinion made the breed a lot more attractive.

It's a pity that dogs suffer because of fashion.

Is that why they refer to the dogs as a 'designer' breed?

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We have been showing and breeding Shar Pei for over 20 years. In that time we have seen changes in the breed for the better with dedicated breeders and deplorable results from others.

As usual the need for sensationalism and emotional responses has ensured the press has not let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Our statistics clearly show the incidence of entropian surgery is NOT 80%. Please remember the rules for show dogs prohibit exhibition of dogs who have had "cosmetic" surgery.

It has been a long time in our part of the country since I have heard of anyone getting that price for a pet puppy and I have never paid anything near their quoted cost of entropian surgery. At that I have combined desexing with entropian and still come in far under $2000.

I do wonder if some of the dumping comes about when a puppy has cost less than the cost of surgery. There is much more I would be happy to discuss but will end with a plea to drop the emotionalism and the idea that regulations will cure all problems. In most cases this results in affecting those who are trying to improve the breed and the exploiters continue their own way.

Jenny Crisp

Gablehaus Shar Pei

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Thanks for posting that, I learned a lot.

I know this will be a stupid question, but in the photo with the label Ptosis.

It looks like that dog has a very deformed nose and lips, like it is swollen and inflamed.

I am guessing this is the trait called meat mouth (Or if not what is it??). Is this selected for? Why would a swollen disfigured looking nose be a trait people would breed for?

Is this disfigured skin on the nose also the same skin gene disease/mutation/defect that causes the excessive wrinkles?

Does this defect cause the skin to be really thickened and disfigured all over the body?

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Our statistics clearly show the incidence of entropian surgery is NOT 80%. Please remember the rules for show dogs prohibit exhibition of dogs who have had "cosmetic" surgery.

How does this rule get enforced, and what are the penalties for breaking it? Just interested.

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We have been showing and breeding Shar Pei for over 20 years. In that time we have seen changes in the breed for the better with dedicated breeders and deplorable results from others.

As usual the need for sensationalism and emotional responses has ensured the press has not let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Our statistics clearly show the incidence of entropian surgery is NOT 80%. Please remember the rules for show dogs prohibit exhibition of dogs who have had "cosmetic" surgery.

It has been a long time in our part of the country since I have heard of anyone getting that price for a pet puppy and I have never paid anything near their quoted cost of entropian surgery. At that I have combined desexing with entropian and still come in far under $2000.

I do wonder if some of the dumping comes about when a puppy has cost less than the cost of surgery. There is much more I would be happy to discuss but will end with a plea to drop the emotionalism and the idea that regulations will cure all problems. In most cases this results in affecting those who are trying to improve the breed and the exploiters continue their own way.

Jenny Crisp

Gablehaus Shar Pei

the bolded bit. just because something is not allowed under the rules does not mean it doesn't occur

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Miss B   
Please remember the rules for show dogs prohibit exhibition of dogs who have had "cosmetic" surgery.

the bolded bit. just because something is not allowed under the rules does not mean it doesn't occur

Agree, I have personally witnessed entropian surgeries on show dogs who have gone on to continue being exhibited.

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As stated previously, the statistic quoted (82%) re: entropion was taken from the records of MDBA who are of course an independent body with regards to the breed.

I also stand by the fact that 8-9 out of 10 Shar Pei that come through SPR Inc require entropion surgery. We have the vet records to prove that.

The purpose of the editorial was to try to educate the general public to ask pertinent questions of the breeder they are considering purchasing the pup from. From the incredible response we have had from the article, I suspect this is being achieved.

SPR Inc has always been approached by the general public for advise as to who is a reputable breeder, and I am very happy to say we can recommend a number of responsible breeders Australia wide. Gablehouse is certainly one of the breeders we recommend. You have a great reputation Gablehouse and this article was certainly not directed at you, but at the reg breeders who continue to breed "poor" quality dogs and who don't stand by the pups they have bred for the lifetime of the animal. These pups/dogs continue to appear in rescue over and over again. In my opinion, these breeders are simply puppy farmers in registered breeder clothing.

Good breeders who breed for betterment of the breed are well respected, you know yourself Gablehouse there are breeders you admire and there are also breeders who make you cringe.

I believe that if the public know what to ask and expect of a breeder, we will see less dogs in rescue and the pounds because the shonky breeders will give up because they can't "move" their puppies along.

Referring to the pei as a designeer breed is incorrect given we refer to a labradoodle (lab X poodle)etc as a designer breed.

ETA: For the last 6 months, 1 -3 Shar pei that enter care with us have been bred by a registered breeder. They appear with both blue!!! and red papers.

Edited by SHAR PEI Rescue Inc

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Steve   

O.K. Here is the problem. Statistics suck especially in the purebred dog world because it all depends on people telling the truth, where you gather the figures from and what group you may be isolating. For example one rescue group tells us that about 1 in 3 of the dogs that they see come through their doors are from registered breeders and that 9 out of 10 out of all dogs require surgery. I have been told by another involved heavily in Shar Pei rescue that their stats support this also. There is no doubt for me that Jenny and Trevor Crisp are the best Shar Pei breeders in the country and I would expect that any stats from them would be much lower and that they are doing all they can to reduce the incidence in the breed. If their stats come from other registered breeders as well as themselves I have no confidence that this data is reliable. However, thats only a snap shot of it all anyway and there are many breeders in the mix from all groups and we see a letter from Dogs Queensland signed by JR Harrison dated February 8th 2011 which says

Quote

'In accordance with 8.2 of the National Canine Health and welfare committee March 2010 meeting minutes we ask Member bodies to write to all of their Shar Pei breeders seeking their feed back on what they are doing in relation to the high incidence of entropian in the breed"

'And

Quote

"Removing all dogs with entropian from the breed will not work as the numbers are too high."

So lets all just agree that lots of them are affected by a genetic disorder and work out what can be done about it. Talking about it and admitting that there is a problem in any breed is not politically correct but like it or not there is no denying that a high incidence of these problems occur in this breed and we may want to haggle over the actual statistics - are they higher than or lower than one group has gathered - which group is more responsible for the high incidence etc there is no longer any way of denying that there is an issue here which needs to be dealt with. I agree there is no need for emotionalism and further laws or regulations is not gong to do anything to help.

I will pull on my flame suit and say to that end that we have done a couple of years worth of research and we have a discussion paper and suggestions for a way forward.

Full article available here on my blog and you will notice all groups of breeders are discussed and the role they play in the issue.

The Way Forward.

If we are to prevent dogs suffering and consider the future of an entire breed we need to take action now. We no longer have the luxury of blaming each other, keeping secrets, remaining complacent or remaining ignorant.

We now need to join forces, share resources and work together for the betterment of this breed.

We need to select animals for breeding which do not have conformation issues which will put future generations at risk of poor health and suffering.

We need to select animals for breeding which have less risk of producing sick or poor temperamented off spring in future generations.

Breeding Healthy Shar Pei

Consistently producing healthy pups with sound temperament is the hallmark of a responsible breeder. Every Shar Pei breeder has to accept responsibility for the part they have played in this breed's evolution. They must honestly look at their contribution, both the good and the bad, and they must decide what part they will play in the breed's future.

They must examine their current breeding practices and change any that are not in the best interest of the individual dog in terms of health and temperament or that are not the best for the future of the breed.

It is the responsibility of us all to become more knowledgeable about our dogs and make good decisions for them and our breeds rather than simply following current conventions or blindly chasing a goal.

We must look at what we are compromising on to meet our goals because if we are damaging individual dogs or the breed then this is completely unacceptable to anyone who truly loves dogs.

Every single breeder needs to ask what they are doing to reduce the incidence of canine health issues and we need to ensure that breeds are being bred in line with what the originators of the breed had in mind with regards to purpose, performance, type, health and longevity.

We need to shake off the idea that problems must be kept quiet and not be shared because if we keep doing this we will not be able to help this or any other breed. We need to enable all breeders to have better knowledge tools and resources to profile a pedigree and track all health and temperament issues as well as how the dog and its ancestors faired in the show ring or other formal dog activities.

Why the pedigree system is so important

Being able to categorically state the ancestry of any dog is still the best tool any breeder has for selecting the best and healthiest dogs to use for breeding and to make informed decisions and determine risk factors for the potential offspring.

The Master Dog Breeders and Associates believed the pedigree system could be further enhanced as a selection tool for breeding purposes so we developed a pedigree system which records all the pedigree information as well as health, temperament, conformation and all dog obedience and sporting achievements such as agility, trialing, schutzhund etc.

Anyone who has a purebred with a registered pedigree with any registry we recognise whether that be limited or main register papers is able to enter their animal's details with us with the appropriate documentation.

This means pet owners with limited registered dogs, rescues who accept dogs with registered pedigrees and purebred dog breeders are able to provide this information and for it to be entered onto our database which will then enable the information to be used when breeders are proofing their pedigrees.

There is no cost for entering this information with us and it is not necessary for anyone to be a member of the MDBA to do so. This as an opportunity for us to gather information which breeders are reluctant to share or don't know. If we only gather information from our members when our members add this information as part of the stud pedigree registration process then there will inevitably be gaps a mile wide in the information we collect .

What we are aiming for is as much verified information pertinent to the whole dog being accessible and visible to our breeder members in their pedigrees to better enable them to estimate breeding values in the dogs they are selecting for breeding.

Hopefully, in the not too distant future our breeder members will be able to access this information on one piece of paper, the dog's pedigree, knowing it is accurate and breed consistently better dogs with science and not just luck.

It is important to note that providing this information into our pedigrees does not register the dog nor give the owner or their dog any benefit. We are undertaking this initiative for the greater good of the breeds in the hope that we can play a small part in helping breeds to move forward.

Edited by Steve

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I have always believed it open (public access and avialable) databases for heatlh test results. For the life of me I do not know why all purebred dogs registries do not offer this information to the public (which would include other breeders). So Ihope the idea is to make this public and useful for everyone.

BTW what every happened to the health survey that anyone could report medical information to. I have not heard any reuslts, have I missed the results or is the information not avialable to the public?

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Steve   
I have always believed it open (public access and avialable) databases for heatlh test results. For the life of me I do not know why all purebred dogs registries do not offer this information to the public (which would include other breeders). So Ihope the idea is to make this public and useful for everyone.

BTW what every happened to the health survey that anyone could report medical information to. I have not heard any reuslts, have I missed the results or is the information not avialable to the public?

The health survey is still open and information is collected every day.

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I have always believed it open (public access and avialable) databases for heatlh test results. For the life of me I do not know why all purebred dogs registries do not offer this information to the public (which would include other breeders). So Ihope the idea is to make this public and useful for everyone.

BTW what every happened to the health survey that anyone could report medical information to. I have not heard any reuslts, have I missed the results or is the information not avialable to the public?

The health survey is still open and information is collected every day.

Will there ever be a report that we can read? and if so when?

As a breeder how do I find out about what it says about my breed?

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Steve   
The specialist veterinary opthomologist that I spent some time in clinic with reckoned he operated on sharpei to reduce excess forehead skin & entropion very commonly.

I'd wonder if it's more common with back yard bred sharpei than registered ones? Either way, something for the kennel club to do something about if they want to retain good public opinion (i.e., I think the kennel club either need to show that it's the BYB and not them producing these dogs, or if it is them, do something to stop registered dogs being bred to such an extreme).

Given that there appears to be many more being bred from those other than ANKC registered breeders - who only bred 375 of them Austalia wide in 2010 - it appears to me to be something that really is simply side stepping the issue if we want to start saying its not us its them. It is them but it is also us. How many of the 375 puppies born via ANKC breeders last year had to have a face lift, had eye damage, had [specifically] entropian surgery, suffered from Shar Pei fever? Looking at stats is going to give different views - example we know there is a registered breeder in one state who pumps out lots of litters and doesnt want their dogs back so rescue may see more registered dogs being dumped there - that doesnt really tell as story about much more than one breeder in one locality and if all other registered Shar Pei breeders

only have a litter a year and she is having 10 with only 375 being born all over Australia the figures tell a different story.

The breed standard was changed in Australia in 2009 to say that excess BODY wrinkles was undesirable and that may help but is a registered breeder who has no interest in how the dog looks going to make any effort to ensure they breed adult dogs with less wrinkles ? Its complicated and it sucks that if there are one or two registered breeders who breed lots of dogs and lots of them have problems that the group they belong to have to wear the rap BUT I guarantee that Jenny and Trevor Crisp GABLEHAUS are raising the bar and doing everything they possibly can to ensure they breed healthy Shar Pei, that they do take responsibility for the dogs they breed and work their hearts out to be sure that future generations are healthier. I know they are part of the solution and the more information they have the better their chances of a positive outcome for their breed.

The letter from Dogs Queensland tells them to select dogs for breeding which do not have small eyes where possible or at least to mate a dog with small eyes to a dog with larger eyes and over time that should help.

Finding out EXACTLY how bad it may be or how many of which group are bred which suffer because of how they have been selected is in my opinion impossible for a variety of reasons. However, no group has a get out of jail free ticket and everyone regardless of which group they belong to needs to consider how their goals and decisions make dogs suffer when they shouldnt be and take responsibility and clean up their act.

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Nekhbet   

As with most breeds here in Australia we need to start importing more genetics. We're too isolated here and many breeds are showing the effects of it. If not dogs then at least semen on a more regular basis.

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