JulesP Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Totally agree with Poodlefan. Think happy thoughts and sort of walk in a happy bouncy way. I know I tend to walk slower too when I stressed out, which causes the dog to lag even more, causing me to stress and walk slower etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 What this thread needs is a bad dog trainer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I love that video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Another thought: Noting that this dog is fine in training (very important qualifier) and only seems to have issues with competition, what's different (other than you)? Do you generally train with food or the other motivator on you? Suggestions about "training in drive" don't seem to note that in training conditions this dog is fine. The question to be answered is why is the dog different in competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesmaam Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 [ name='Yesmaam' It was a joke Corvus but while we're on the subject 'enthusiasm' or 'drive' is genetic, the dog either has it or it doesn’t. It's not something you can simply inject and you're away. 'Drive' in working line dogs when compared to non-working line dogs is light years apart. I see too many people fluffing around making more of a commotion than the dog trying to build drive in something that simply doesn’t have it or is very low. Quite funny to watch actually.............lol I agree that a dog either has high drive or dos'nt, but its not all about working lines or breeds. Plenty of non working lines and breeds have drive to burn. Its all about the individual. I trained a Staffy with just as much drive as any working dog, and there are plenty of pound dogs on death row for the very same reason. Of course you are more likely to find a hign drive dog from a working line, but its not guaranteed. I would also argue that many potential pet line dogs do not have owners who know how to promote and nurture the drive from puppyhood like working dog owners do. Most pet owners automatically attempt to suppress high drive, and later when they want to trial they are trying to do the opposite. Yes, I agree with this also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Another thought: Noting that this dog is fine in training (very important qualifier) and only seems to have issues with competition, what's different (other than you)? Do you generally train with food or the other motivator on you? Suggestions about "training in drive" don't seem to note that in training conditions this dog is fine. The question to be answered is why is the dog different in competition. The OP said that the dog was 'reasonably good' in training. Maybe we need clarification of what this means and whether motivation may be an issue in training as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesmaam Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Meant to say too that sometimes when something is going wrong we do get tempted to drill and work at it. And that makes it worse. I think you get get yourself into self destructive loops too.. dog not heeling well.. we stress and over train it.. dog gets sour/picks up on competition nerves.. and fails.. so we stress more and train more. If you're expecting trouble in the ring, I think you often get it. Body language changes and we tense up.. dog starts to worry what we're freaking out about.. its certainly the best recipe for lagging I know of.. and I've done it. Lets not forget that there are two members of a team in competition obedience.. sorting out our half of the team is often a good place to start. Its not just about the dog. very true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesmaam Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Another thought: Noting that this dog is fine in training (very important qualifier) and only seems to have issues with competition, what's different (other than you)? Do you generally train with food or the other motivator on you? Suggestions about "training in drive" don't seem to note that in training conditions this dog is fine. The question to be answered is why is the dog different in competition. I agree PF, The owner probably hasnt trained enough under trial conditions to prepare the dog properly was my first thought on this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I agree that a dog either has high drive or dos'nt, but its not all about working lines or breeds. Plenty of non working lines and breeds have drive to burn. Its all about the individual. I trained a Staffy with just as much drive as any working dog, and there are plenty of pound dogs on death row for the very same reason.Of course you are more likely to find a hign drive dog from a working line, but its not guaranteed. I would also argue that many potential pet line dogs do not have owners who know how to promote and nurture the drive from puppyhood like working dog owners do. Most pet owners automatically attempt to suppress high drive, and later when they want to trial they are trying to do the opposite. Which drive?? Dogs have a whole bunch of drives. If you're talking about prey drive, its best to be specific but lets not kid ourselves that its the only drive than can be effectively harnessed to achieve great results in obedience competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I think you get get yourself into self destructive loops too.. dog not heeling well.. we stress and over train it.. dog gets sour/picks up on competition nerves.. and fails.. so we stress more and train more. If you're expecting trouble in the ring, I think you often get it. Body language changes and we tense up.. dog starts to worry what we're freaking out about.. its certainly the best recipe for lagging I know of.. and I've done it. Lets not forget that there are two members of a team in competition obedience.. sorting out our half of the team is often a good place to start. Its not just about the dog. I am soooooo guilty of this!!! My dog works relativelly ok in training, good enought to get a comfortable pass Id say. Yet all we get is a fail in a trial. I am super stressed, she walks 3 meters behind me in the ring!!! What do I do to fix ME in the scenario??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) I think you get get yourself into self destructive loops too.. dog not heeling well.. we stress and over train it.. dog gets sour/picks up on competition nerves.. and fails.. so we stress more and train more. If you're expecting trouble in the ring, I think you often get it. Body language changes and we tense up.. dog starts to worry what we're freaking out about.. its certainly the best recipe for lagging I know of.. and I've done it. Lets not forget that there are two members of a team in competition obedience.. sorting out our half of the team is often a good place to start. Its not just about the dog. I am soooooo guilty of this!!! My dog works relativelly ok in training, good enought to get a comfortable pass Id say. Yet all we get is a fail in a trial. I am super stressed, she walks 3 meters behind me in the ring!!! What do I do to fix ME in the scenario??? Do agility instead All joking aside, I have found that competing in agility has boosted my ring confidence. I was way too terrified to enter an obedience trial, everyone seemed to take it so seriously and I also got very stressed and Diesel shut down. In Agility, being more active and less pedantic about the way the handler moves/acts, I was less self conscious and less stressed. And it is fun and while some people take it seriously, it is also very social and fun and people help you out. I was still very stressed at the beginning, but now that I am more experienced it is not so bad. I think I would be better now if I entered an obedience trial than if I'd entered one before doing agility. ETA: it helps not to take it TOO seriously. I probably still wouldn't be trialling if I hadn't been pushed into it by my friends! I had a period where we had trial problems and I had to modify my goals significantly until they were fixed (shortening the course so no chance of a pass) but it was so worth it in the end. Also in agility you can do several runs in the one trial and they are short, so you don't have to worry about messing up the only chance you are going to have that day. Edited June 23, 2011 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) I think you get get yourself into self destructive loops too.. dog not heeling well.. we stress and over train it.. dog gets sour/picks up on competition nerves.. and fails.. so we stress more and train more. If you're expecting trouble in the ring, I think you often get it. Body language changes and we tense up.. dog starts to worry what we're freaking out about.. its certainly the best recipe for lagging I know of.. and I've done it. Lets not forget that there are two members of a team in competition obedience.. sorting out our half of the team is often a good place to start. Its not just about the dog. I am soooooo guilty of this!!! My dog works relativelly ok in training, good enought to get a comfortable pass Id say. Yet all we get is a fail in a trial. I am super stressed, she walks 3 meters behind me in the ring!!! What do I do to fix ME in the scenario??? 1. Drink heavily Seriously, something like rescue remedy is good, for YOU 2. Change your goals. If showing your dog a good time in the ring is more important than a pass, it changes your attitude. 3. SMILE. Its actually impossible to tense your neck and shoulders when you're smiling. I'm sure a few judges wondered why I thought I was in a beauty pagent parade but it helped my dog. 4. Resist the urge to look left and down to check your dog's position.. doing it will almost inevitably push the dog off a close heel position. Get someone to watch you or heel so you can see the dog's shadow easily. 5. Up the fun factor in training. Heel work can be made into a modified game of chasey with the dog rewarded for holding that position as you mix up paces and direction. 6. As someone's said, be bright and bouncy. Normal pace should be brisk, not a funeral procession. Slow pace should be about normal walking pace (but with longer steps) and fast pace a good run. Mock trials are good if you can find them too but a good sports psychology book/trainer is probably as important as training the dog. You have to visualise success, not failure and work towards it. Edited June 23, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) I think it's about focus / motiviation / drive ie if the dog is focussed on you in the face of all distractions, then the trial ring should not be a problem. if the dog is only focussed on the food you carry - you've got more work to do. The only way I can stop pre-comp stress is to be completely not bothered by the outcome. The more I want to "pass" the worse I do. If I put my attention and desire on doing each element as it is, assuming my dog can do it correctly and won't have problems with "traps", and don't worry about the pass/fail aspect, then I do better. Ie the more I can not-care about the outcome the better I do because I can just pay attention to what I'm doing right now. Which is hard in agility cos you have to look where you're going and remember when you need to get your dog's attention quickly and not crash, or go too slowly, and having trained a really good "wait", if you say "wait" when your dog is on the top of the scramble, you have to release her to get her down. Oops. So with trialing and training, it helps to get your dog excited about being with you, and her blood pumping before you start any exercise. For me that involves a bit of on lead running and tug (on the lead) and then she's pretty keen to be right on me all the way round. All I got to do now is explain that she doesn't need to herd me to go faster. Edited June 23, 2011 by Mrs Rusty Bucket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I am relatively new to all this and still formulating my thoughts (my first obedience dog) so forgive me if I'm going off topic. Hopefully my ramblings might help the OP as well Let's be honest, we will never get rid of nerves completely so our dogs need to get used to that. Things like mock trials will help, but how about other situations that will make us slightly nervous? A demo in front of other people, perhaps? How about whipping out the dog for training after doing some public speaking? Thoughts, ideas? With my dog, I don't expect her to work at 100% in trials. Until she is perfectly proofed on my nerves as well as the trial environment it wouldn't be fair to expect the same standard in training. And realistically, I don't know if I can ever proof her fully on those things so for the moment I need to make sure she's absolutely 100% in training so I can afford a bit of a drop in trials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I am relatively new to all this and still formulating my thoughts (my first obedience dog) so forgive me if I'm going off topic. Hopefully my ramblings might help the OP as well Let's be honest, we will never get rid of nerves completely so our dogs need to get used to that. Things like mock trials will help, but how about other situations that will make us slightly nervous? A demo in front of other people, perhaps? How about whipping out the dog for training after doing some public speaking? Thoughts, ideas? With my dog, I don't expect her to work at 100% in trials. Until she is perfectly proofed on my nerves as well as the trial environment it wouldn't be fair to expect the same standard in training. And realistically, I don't know if I can ever proof her fully on those things so for the moment I need to make sure she's absolutely 100% in training so I can afford a bit of a drop in trials. I see obedience as teamwork. I agree that you cannot completely control nerves but you can sure do a hell of a lot to enable your dog to work without being affected by your behaviour. I prefer to think that I can adapt my behaviour to a fair degree and that I shouldn't expect my dog to just deal with it. Two team members have to put some effort in, not one. That's why signals, footwork etc is important - because when we do better we enable the dog to perform better. I don't see other scenarios as the same because its only in the ring that you are deprived of other motivators for your dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HugL Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Great topic and LOOOVE the video I have a dog that is bored with obedience but I would love to title. This info is all very interesting and I hope more experienced people keep adding for us novices. Will be trying anything that could work. Thanks all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 To the OP and others - if you get the chance, do try Rally O. It's fun teaching the moves - can only improve your precision in turns etc in obedience - and best of all - not only can you talk to your dog as you go through the course, you should! One of the aspects that's marked is teamwork - handler and dog working together, and handler recognisingand responding to the dog's needs. And really, really best of all -no stays. Novice Rally O is done on lead, and tight leads are penalised! Oh - and one other best thing - if you mess up a station, you can call for a re-try - and only lose 3 points for doing that - gives you a chance to fix things in the ring and heap praise on the dog and yourself for getting it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I am relatively new to all this and still formulating my thoughts (my first obedience dog) so forgive me if I'm going off topic. Hopefully my ramblings might help the OP as well Let's be honest, we will never get rid of nerves completely so our dogs need to get used to that. Things like mock trials will help, but how about other situations that will make us slightly nervous? A demo in front of other people, perhaps? How about whipping out the dog for training after doing some public speaking? Thoughts, ideas? With my dog, I don't expect her to work at 100% in trials. Until she is perfectly proofed on my nerves as well as the trial environment it wouldn't be fair to expect the same standard in training. And realistically, I don't know if I can ever proof her fully on those things so for the moment I need to make sure she's absolutely 100% in training so I can afford a bit of a drop in trials. I see obedience as teamwork. I agree that you cannot completely control nerves but you can sure do a hell of a lot to enable your dog to work without being affected by your behaviour. I prefer to think that I can adapt my behaviour to a fair degree and that I shouldn't expect my dog to just deal with it. Two team members have to put some effort in, not one. That's why signals, footwork etc is important - because when we do better we enable the dog to perform better. I don't see other scenarios as the same because its only in the ring that you are deprived of other motivators for your dog. I do agree that we need to take responsibility for nerves. I am relatively calm in the ring and am getting better all the time, but my body language still changes. I think that my dog and I have excellent teamwork, and she is super tuned into my body language. She trusts me and doesn't fall to pieces if I'm more tense than usual, am walking more upright,or are walking a bit crooked, or go a bit slower than usual... but it does take a toll on our overall ring performance. Does anyone have a dog that performs 100% in training then 100% in trials? I haven't seen one, but I'd be interested to hear what other people think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) I do agree that we need to take responsibility for nerves. I am relatively calm in the ring and am getting better all the time, but my body language still changes. I think that my dog and I have excellent teamwork, and she is super tuned into my body language. She trusts me and doesn't fall to pieces if I'm more tense than usual, am walking more upright,or are walking a bit crooked, or go a bit slower than usual... but it does take a toll on our overall ring performance.Does anyone have a dog that performs 100% in training then 100% in trials? I haven't seen one, but I'd be interested to hear what other people think. Not 100% of the time, but yes, I've seen it. There was one dog in particular at our club that LOVED to trial. I used to joke with his owner that Sam was a robot... he was perfect most of the time. Edited June 23, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 So would you expect exactly the same performance in a trial as you got in training? Or would you allow some leeway? Just ignore me if I'm being annoying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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