OSoSwift Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I have seen the SAME dog non-awarded at least 10 times. Each time the exhibitor asked why it was not given its Challenge, they were given the same answer. I am not sure if they kept going because it HAD been awarded in the past (and I truly hope not as it was a major and obvious fault) or if they didn't believe the judges. They had a bitch which was a nice example of the breed and were always awarded challenges for her so not sure why they kept going with the other one..... Me too! it had an obvious fault (very obvious!) yet I had also seen it awarded the CC on many occassions (albeit, unopposed - but it should have been non-awarded)... I guess as they have had the occassional challenge that is why they keep going back - variable reinforcement at it's best. They are only kidding themselves really at the end of the day thought aren't they. Sad if the fault is that obvious that it ahs been awarded at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Do people keep going back with a dog if it is non-awarded a few times? I wouldn't. Some dogs are non-awarded for poor temperament. That can be worked on. Some dogs are non-awarded for petty injuries (e.g. slight limps) that they recover from. Some dogs are non-awarded for being so far away from the standard that it's ridiculous. Problem is that they a not always non-awarded. When I steward I enjoy encountering judges who refuse Challenges. It means they are taking their role seriously. I made lots of comment when the Grand Champion rules were altered, even having a letter to Dog News Australia published. I don't feel a need to repeat myself. I felt the OP's comments on the Australian Champion were petty speculation without expressing ideas that were adequate justification for engaging our consideration. CC VEry true, I was thinking of being non-awarded for conformation faults when I was thinking about it, but yes if for a transient injury that is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aziah Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I have seen the SAME dog non-awarded at least 10 times. Each time the exhibitor asked why it was not given its Challenge, they were given the same answer. I am not sure if they kept going because it HAD been awarded in the past (and I truly hope not as it was a major and obvious fault) or if they didn't believe the judges. They had a bitch which was a nice example of the breed and were always awarded challenges for her so not sure why they kept going with the other one..... Me too! it had an obvious fault (very obvious!) yet I had also seen it awarded the CC on many occassions (albeit, unopposed - but it should have been non-awarded)... I guess as they have had the occassional challenge that is why they keep going back - variable reinforcement at it's best. They are only kidding themselves really at the end of the day thought aren't they. Sad if the fault is that obvious that it ahs been awarded at all. It was a coat fault (so it had a 'fluffy' coat - like a long coated GSD or Corgi - but neither of those breeds)...that's pretty obvious I think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conztruct Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Does the awarding of challenge certificates or CH actually have that much weight and influence though on what peoples' perception of a good example of the breed is? There are some dogs that have CH titles etc which I can see major problems in and I don't think they're a good example of the breed, so I think that while a title may be an indicator, if it's the sole factor that people view as denoting a quality example, I would suggest to them that they need to research their breed a little better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) I have seen the SAME dog non-awarded at least 10 times. Each time the exhibitor asked why it was not given its Challenge, they were given the same answer. I am not sure if they kept going because it HAD been awarded in the past (and I truly hope not as it was a major and obvious fault) or if they didn't believe the judges. They had a bitch which was a nice example of the breed and were always awarded challenges for her so not sure why they kept going with the other one..... Me too! it had an obvious fault (very obvious!) yet I had also seen it awarded the CC on many occassions (albeit, unopposed - but it should have been non-awarded)... I guess as they have had the occassional challenge that is why they keep going back - variable reinforcement at it's best. They are only kidding themselves really at the end of the day thought aren't they. Sad if the fault is that obvious that it ahs been awarded at all. It was a coat fault (so it had a 'fluffy' coat - like a long coated GSD or Corgi - but neither of those breeds)...that's pretty obvious I think! And I thought I was being subtle about what dog it was LMAO. And judges giving that dog points should be audited and asked what the hell they were thinking Edited July 8, 2011 by ~Woofen~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bokezu Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 This thread has had some very good replies Thank your for your constructive imput. I opened this thread with a little of my history (as I had a idea that someone would get personal and not stay with the thread) and sure enough it became personal for only a couple of peoples. To those your questions did not warrant an answer. Our chosen sport is quite expensive and requires dedication and you need to be prepared for that if you are serious about breeding/showing dogs. Of course anyone living in WA, Tasmania, the NT or remote from metro areas and specialty locations should have to haemorrhage financially to attend specialties - where they exist. Otherwise they lack "dedicaton". I find that patronising in the extreme. I agree, very patronising Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) I have seen the SAME dog non-awarded at least 10 times. Each time the exhibitor asked why it was not given its Challenge, they were given the same answer. I am not sure if they kept going because it HAD been awarded in the past (and I truly hope not as it was a major and obvious fault) or if they didn't believe the judges. They had a bitch which was a nice example of the breed and were always awarded challenges for her so not sure why they kept going with the other one..... Me too! it had an obvious fault (very obvious!) yet I had also seen it awarded the CC on many occassions (albeit, unopposed - but it should have been non-awarded)... a long fluffy coat will have that affect on some judges, especially when a smooth double coat with dense under coat is required. Edited July 8, 2011 by ReadySetGo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Does the awarding of challenge certificates or CH actually have that much weight and influence though on what peoples' perception of a good example of the breed is? I think the answer to this depends a lot on the observer. I see it as one element of qualifying a dog for a breeding program. There are other important elements that a judge has no hope of assessing in a show ring, and those are the responsibility of the breeder to assess. Like human qualifications, some get through the Ch by the skin of their teeth and some romp it in with a 25 point challenge on their first birthday. An educated observer isn't going to assume a plumbers license guarantees a good job on their drains, or a legal qualification guarantees their lawyer will win their case. The qualification is just one box to tick among many before deciding they are the one for the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aziah Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 I have seen the SAME dog non-awarded at least 10 times. Each time the exhibitor asked why it was not given its Challenge, they were given the same answer. I am not sure if they kept going because it HAD been awarded in the past (and I truly hope not as it was a major and obvious fault) or if they didn't believe the judges. They had a bitch which was a nice example of the breed and were always awarded challenges for her so not sure why they kept going with the other one..... Me too! it had an obvious fault (very obvious!) yet I had also seen it awarded the CC on many occassions (albeit, unopposed - but it should have been non-awarded)... I guess as they have had the occassional challenge that is why they keep going back - variable reinforcement at it's best. They are only kidding themselves really at the end of the day thought aren't they. Sad if the fault is that obvious that it ahs been awarded at all. It was a coat fault (so it had a 'fluffy' coat - like a long coated GSD or Corgi - but neither of those breeds)...that's pretty obvious I think! And I thought I was being subtle about what dog it was LMAO. And judges giving that dog points should be audited and asked what the hell they were thinking I wasn't sure if it would be the same dog/breed but given your location etc. I figured it may well be! It's no longer shown so that's some sort of bonus I suppose BUT it was awarded CC's when it was being shown and that's a real concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 In order for a dog to be shown, it has to be main registered and that is the ONLY criteria. There is nothing in the rules that says it has to be a great example of the breed, or that it has a chance of winning, it only has to be main registered. If someone with a main registered dog with a fault, a limp, poor temperament or conformation, or even a main registered dog that looks like a donkey wants to show their dog, that's their prerogative and their right. If dogs with faults are being shown and winning challenges, that's not the fault of the owners. And even if they are aware of the dogs faults, and the dogs are awarded challenges, or even class wins from time to time, why shouldn't they keep showing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klink Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 In order for a dog to be shown, it has to be main registered and that is the ONLY criteria. There is nothing in the rules that says it has to be a great example of the breed, or that it has a chance of winning, it only has to be main registered. If someone with a main registered dog with a fault, a limp, poor temperament or conformation, or even a main registered dog that looks like a donkey wants to show their dog, that's their prerogative and their right. If dogs with faults are being shown and winning challenges, that's not the fault of the owners. And even if they are aware of the dogs faults, and the dogs are awarded challenges, or even class wins from time to time, why shouldn't they keep showing? I agree completely with your comments,the quality of dogs' being put up is only a reflection of the standard of the judging on the day. I do believe however that the judges' need to be answerable to someone rather than just the exhibitors. I believe that in the US judges are somewhat critiqued on their judging decisions. This is as I am aware done by a body contracted by the AKC to do this .I know of an australian judge that was asked to explain their reasons for putting up a particular exhibit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkySoaringMagpie Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I agree completely with your comments,the quality of dogs' being put up is only a reflection of the standard of the judging on the day. I do believe however that the judges' need to be answerable to someone rather than just the exhibitors. I believe that in the US judges are somewhat critiqued on their judging decisions. This is as I am aware done by a body contracted by the AKC to do this .I know of an australian judge that was asked to explain their reasons for putting up a particular exhibit. If you think we have problems with cronyism now, we'll have even more problems under a system like that. If we want independent judges, we have to treat them like grownups. One thing I would like to see is some kind of continuing education requirement to maintain one's license, similar to what many professionals have to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klink Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I agree completely with your comments,the quality of dogs' being put up is only a reflection of the standard of the judging on the day. I do believe however that the judges' need to be answerable to someone rather than just the exhibitors. I believe that in the US judges are somewhat critiqued on their judging decisions. This is as I am aware done by a body contracted by the AKC to do this .I know of an australian judge that was asked to explain their reasons for putting up a particular exhibit. If you think we have problems with cronyism now, we'll have even more problems under a system like that. If we want independent judges, we have to treat them like grownups. One thing I would like to see is some kind of continuing education requirement to maintain one's license, similar to what many professionals have to do. Continuing training will not stop cronyism in our sport or any others, but at least lets' see the canine bodies acknowledge there is a problem with some of their judges' and attempt to do something about it. As far as I am concerned I would just like to see some effort to allay some of the discontent amongst exhibitors who witness it every week-end. Sadly, I dont' think we will. Many professions have mechanisms in place to keep the pros' on their toes', why not ours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaar Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I'm sorry but are you freaking kidding me????? I am not dedicated to my breed because I don't have thousands of dollars to travel to the mainland to compete against other dogs? I would rather spend those thousands using a top stud dog or importing a new dog than proving myself and my dogs to people like you. Yes, dog showing is expensive, but I'm not wasting my money traveling just to make you happy. I have a rare breed. In fact half my boys points were made up of 6 point challenges. But that does not make him ANY less of a dog just because he had no competition. Would I like to travel to a specialty one day? For sure! Do I think I should HAVE to... NO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Well just to add a bit of excitment to the thread ;) ;) ;) ;) I saw a gorgeous boy today who is 22 points off his Aust GR. CH title. http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=38920 In 2 years 5 months he has acheived this with mostly 7,8,9 point BOB. Many In group and at least 1 in show award that I am aware of. Yep he is a petrol grand ch you have to drive from home to a show :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I just hope I am at the show when he gets it because he is well deserving of it. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Go Bullitt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showpony Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Well just to add a bit of excitment to the thread ;) ;) ;) ;) I saw a gorgeous boy today who is 22 points off his Aust GR. CH title. http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=38920 In 2 years 5 months he has acheived this with mostly 7,8,9 point BOB. Many In group and at least 1 in show award that I am aware of. Yep he is a petrol grand ch you have to drive from home to a show :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I just hope I am at the show when he gets it because he is well deserving of it. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Go Bullitt. Hi, I know this is slightly off topic.......but with the travelling that Gundog trialers have to do.....just to do a training day let alone compete (I travelled 6 hours for a club training day).......does that make them petrol Champions too !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 I've been doing a 3 1/2 hour round trip every couple of weeks for herding training and then the same for trials. When my girl gets her titles, will she be a petrol herding titled dog? Or just the titled dog of a very tired and poor owner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Well just to add a bit of excitment to the thread ;) ;) ;) ;) I saw a gorgeous boy today who is 22 points off his Aust GR. CH title. http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=38920 In 2 years 5 months he has acheived this with mostly 7,8,9 point BOB. Many In group and at least 1 in show award that I am aware of. Yep he is a petrol grand ch you have to drive from home to a show :rofl: :rofl: I just hope I am at the show when he gets it because he is well deserving of it. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Go Bullitt. Hi, I know this is slightly off topic.......but with the travelling that Gundog trialers have to do.....just to do a training day let alone compete (I travelled 6 hours for a club training day).......does that make them petrol Champions too !! Absolutly. :rofl: ;) ;) ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted July 9, 2011 Share Posted July 9, 2011 Same with my ET title - 1500kms for a cheap arse ET title and two thirds of a CCD title. Can't have deserved them - all petrol titles/passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conztruct Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) I might have got it wrong but my impression of a "petrol" champion was not so much that travel had to be done to attend shows/trials but that exhibitors would travel long distances to avoid competition in order try and get challenges - that's certainly my impression. Apart from my local shows (within and hours drive), I have to travel at least 3 hours to go to a show. Gayle is so right about eligibility to show and the accountability being on judges - they make the decisions and the exhibitor can't be responsible for that decision. I think some of the "cronyism" is sorted out naturally - exhibitors and organising committees usually suss this out pretty quickly and expose it. I've been to show weekends where the entry was less than half for one judge as it was for the other judge - sometimes words aren't necessary to give you an indication of what is going on.....LOL Edited July 11, 2011 by conztruct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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