woodbyne Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Hi I'm feeling rather frustrated with my training sessions. I have to train at home by myself as its a long long drive to the closest club so i'm hoping for some helpful advice. Background: Dalmatian 4 years old had numerous health issues now all undercontrol (touch wood) hence the lag getting into serious training well not serious training but routine training. I have previously trialled 4 other dals to ADMs CDXs never made the elusive UD. This girl is giving me a nightmare. One day shes consistent and loving training tail wagging and i think brilliant yep we will get in the trial ring then what a difference a day can make next day nope can't remember a thing. We are working on weavers at the moment she was progressing nicely then yesterday dummy spit halfway through the weavers dropped her head and took off nose on the ground up to the gate to get back into the house paddock. Shes at teh gate dying to try and get in. I encourage her to come back and its like i have beaten her to death now shes got no focus at all tail down and wont even look at me. I have no idea why this behaviour happened and she wasn't spooked by anything near the weavers or anything. i get her to do a jump and a tunnel shes pretty half hearted about it and then i call it quits for the day. This morning i go out and she did one perfect go of the weavers (her level not competition) i stupidly give her another go and she spits the dummy again. Shes not highly motivated by anything so training is bloody hard work. We have been doing NLIF which has worked ok but quite often she really doesn't care if she doesn't get a pat or her dinner. I'd love to hear from anyone with a hard dog to motivate and how they worked around this all my other dals have been piggies and ball freaks. I just don't know what to turn to next shes just so inconsistent is it me or just her temperament. I'm feeling a bit disheartened and wondering if she doesn't want to train whats the point problem is i love it and love going to trials to talk with people and another dog is not an option for us might end up with two like her anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 What health issues has she had? Sounds like sometimes she is still not feeling 100% My allergy dog is similar, sometimes works well, other times you can see he is just not interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickie Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) My advice would be to give her a break from training for a couple of months. Spend the time building fun motivation games in a low distraction environment (eg lounge room), then backyard, then paddock etc. I know how frustrating it is, one of my previous dogs was like this. I tried to build motivation with him using training. It didn't work. After spending a couple of months just playing games with him, he came back to training a totally different dog and stayed motivated till the day he died. The good thing about just playing motivation games is that your expectations are a lot lower than, say weaving/heeling etc. It tends to put the joy back into things for both of you. Edited August 8, 2011 by Vickie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbyne Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 What health issues has she had? Sounds like sometimes she is still not feeling 100% My allergy dog is similar, sometimes works well, other times you can see he is just not interested. The major issue was seizures thats now under control by grain free diet and it was also caused by low calcium levels so thats also under control. Before seh was desexed (was showing her so didn't desex her but now in nueter) she had polycystic ovaries For no good reason she would suddenly have chronic diarea with debilitaing stomach cramping that also hasn't occured since the change in diet. So for us the change in diet seems to have cured thing i stricly measure everything and don't change a thing and she never gets anything other than whats on her diet plan even when she looks at you with pathetic eyes you know you can't risk it. Thing is when shes finished training shes perfectly normal so i don't hink its a health thing more an attitude thing but happy to listen to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbyne Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 My advice would be to give her a break from training for a couple of months. Spend the time building fun motivation games in a low distraction environment (eg lounge room), then backyard, then paddock etc. I know how frustrating it is, one of my previous dogs was like this. I tried to build motivation with him using training. It didn't work. After spending a couple of months just playing games with him, he came back to training a totally different dog and stayed motivated till the day he died. The good thing about just playing motivation games is that your expectations are a lot lower than, say weaving/heeling etc. It tends to put the joy back into things for both of you. Any good books on the type of motivational games to play? Sad thing is shes only just come back to training.... Gawd will we ever get to trial.....and you are probably right i'm putting to much pressure on her not that i did it consciously but thinking it through maybeeee. Sad when my daughters pup is progressing 100% fater than mine.....looks like i'll be going to trials and sit on the sideline watching her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Having been through an incredibly challenging stage with my Dally, I would make her work for every scrap of food she gets - I like Vickie's idea of dropping back on the formal training and using motivational games in a more relaxed approach. "The Focussed Puppy" is a great little book - available from Clean Run with free shipping. One thing about playing motivational games - ALL our training should be just as much fun, particularly if you want to get a highly distractible Dally in the ring ;) Currently, my youngster is in season so Zig is a little bit distracted by the "ladies" at training Yesterday at training he broke his sit stay for the first time that I can recall to ask a lovely bitch next to him out on the town :rolleyes: I very quietly returned to him, gave him a verbal NRM in a bright voice and he wagged his silly tail as I heeled him back into position (NOTE: no cranky body language!!!!) No dramas and he was rewarded heavily on my return (in position). I left him in a sit stay for the drop stays and the lovely girl next to him decided that she did indeed want to go out on the town with him and went up to him not once but twice! He wagged his tail so hard that he nearly levitated and his eyes were wide with delight but he did not move a muscle because I have made it incredibly rewarding to ignore temptations - often he gets the food treat afterwards and also gets released to sniff etc. This is the result of 4.5 years of training!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbyne Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 Having been through an incredibly challenging stage with my Dally, I would make her work for every scrap of food she gets - I like Vickie's idea of dropping back on the formal training and using motivational games in a more relaxed approach. "The Focussed Puppy" is a great little book - available from Clean Run with free shipping. One thing about playing motivational games - ALL our training should be just as much fun, particularly if you want to get a highly distractible Dally in the ring ;) Currently, my youngster is in season so Zig is a little bit distracted by the "ladies" at training Yesterday at training he broke his sit stay for the first time that I can recall to ask a lovely bitch next to him out on the town :rolleyes: I very quietly returned to him, gave him a verbal NRM in a bright voice and he wagged his silly tail as I heeled him back into position (NOTE: no cranky body language!!!!) No dramas and he was rewarded heavily on my return (in position). I left him in a sit stay for the drop stays and the lovely girl next to him decided that she did indeed want to go out on the town with him and went up to him not once but twice! He wagged his tail so hard that he nearly levitated and his eyes were wide with delight but he did not move a muscle because I have made it incredibly rewarding to ignore temptations - often he gets the food treat afterwards and also gets released to sniff etc. This is the result of 4.5 years of training!!! I'll look up that book now ummm 4.5 yrs of training oh well at least by then she will be slowing down anyway and probably wont be botehred nicking off. I often feel i have left the run to late but not by choice. I have found feeding her all her dinner by hand is hard as she can only eat raw meat and vegies and brown rice no kibbles at all so i'm trying to think how i can make her dinner into some sort of cooked cookie or formed treat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I would use the raw meat as training treats for sure (icky I know!) - love the idea of making a cookie. Try using the food in a bowl to build motivation - you want the dog "driving" towards the bowl. So I hold Zig's collar, show him that I'm dropping food onto the "bait plate", walk away a few steps and when he strains against it (even slightly) release and say "get it!" and run with him to the bowl. I love this method - works for basic drive building, put the bowl behind the dog for change of position or stays and behind me for a recall. I also used it to help overcome his fear of the seesaw. Half the fun is running to the bowl with the dog and getting all excited with them - even drop a few extra treats in the bowl to celebrate. Sometimes they muck up and run to the food anyway - do not tell them off. Just ignore it. 2 food game is also fun! The other things I do are engage with him 100% when I am training - quality over quantity every time - and then release to sniff and pee. I started with a few seconds in heel position, rewarded and then released. Now he comes back to me when I release him to start training again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Also think about your body language... the second I tense up or get frustrated one of my dogs shuts down. Sniffing the ground can be a displacement behaviour. The other day at training someone upset me and I stupidly tried to train my dog afterwards... I asked her to heel and she looked at me like I was a stranger. I spent a few minutes calming down and having some fun with her (2 food game, her favourite tricks, lots of rewards) then tried again and she was perfect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Also think about your body language... the second I tense up or get frustrated one of my dogs shuts down. Sniffing the ground can be a displacement behaviour. The other day at training someone upset me and I stupidly tried to train my dog afterwards... I asked her to heel and she looked at me like I was a stranger. I spent a few minutes calming down and having some fun with her (2 food game, her favourite tricks, lots of rewards) then tried again and she was perfect This. My boy is very similar, in fact the behaviour you have described is him to a T. In some instances he works perfectly, but if he considers there is too much pressure on him I get NOTHING. This is a seriously quick dog who ends up walking around an agility course. ('too much pressure' could be a tight turn, a set of weavers beside a noisy dog, a woman in the next ring yelling at her dog, me dropping my shoulders for any reason.....the list goes on and on and on.) Our solution is to work really hard on keeping him in environments that are just below his stress threshold. I started with at do that wouldn't weave in our back yard, let alone in the ring. Now I have a dog that weaves intemittently in the ring (3 from 3 yesterday - woo hoo!!) and pushes the other dogs out of the way to get to the weavers in the back yard. I also like Vickie's idea of backing off on the training for a little while. Adding value to the games you are playing will definitely help in the long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbyne Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 Also think about your body language... the second I tense up or get frustrated one of my dogs shuts down. Sniffing the ground can be a displacement behaviour. The other day at training someone upset me and I stupidly tried to train my dog afterwards... I asked her to heel and she looked at me like I was a stranger. I spent a few minutes calming down and having some fun with her (2 food game, her favourite tricks, lots of rewards) then tried again and she was perfect You guys are great Can i ask what the 2 food game is? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 2 food game - I use easy to see food such as cheese or you could use multiple squeaky toys. Toss the food in one direction "get it" - as soon as the dog finds the food, toss the food in the opposite direction "get it". Call the dog's name if you need to get their attention. The aim is for them to gulp the food down and look straight up to see where the next piece is going to land and bolt towards it so make it easy to start - not too far and make sure they are watching. If they can't find it run over to it, point at it and say "get it" - then you are very cool in their eyes as you help them find lost treats :D You can use it to get very fast responses for sits and drops - the second they hit the ground throw the next piece - don't make the dog work on duration as well. If they are too slow, NRM in a bright happy voice "try again" and set them up again. It's wonderful and I used it to teach my Springer whistle sits for retrieving as well as teaching drop on recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 2 food game - I use easy to see food such as cheese or you could use multiple squeaky toys. Toss the food in one direction "get it" - as soon as the dog finds the food, toss the food in the opposite direction "get it". Call the dog's name if you need to get their attention. The aim is for them to gulp the food down and look straight up to see where the next piece is going to land and bolt towards it so make it easy to start - not too far and make sure they are watching. If they can't find it run over to it, point at it and say "get it" - then you are very cool in their eyes as you help them find lost treats :D You can use it to get very fast responses for sits and drops - the second they hit the ground throw the next piece - don't make the dog work on duration as well. If they are too slow, NRM in a bright happy voice "try again" and set them up again. It's wonderful and I used it to teach my Springer whistle sits for retrieving as well as teaching drop on recall. Dumb question! So how does this work with a command? You throw the food, they eat it and then you make them drop and then throw the food somewhere else? Sorry, just a bit confused about how it works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Pretty much - it's much easier when you see it I think. The idea is to have the dog driving hard for the treat (so don't give predictable commands or you will slow them down). If you do your prep work right then they eat the treat and are flying back along the "line" you have established in anticipation of throwing the next treat, when you give the command. You can decrease your criteria a little when you increase distance and then build it back up again. You need quick reactions, though - otherwise it becomes dull to your dog and they have no idea what they are being rewarded for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Pretty much - it's much easier when you see it I think. The idea is to have the dog driving hard for the treat (so don't give predictable commands or you will slow them down). If you do your prep work right then they eat the treat and are flying back along the "line" you have established in anticipation of throwing the next treat, when you give the command. You can decrease your criteria a little when you increase distance and then build it back up again. You need quick reactions, though - otherwise it becomes dull to your dog and they have no idea what they are being rewarded for. Thanks for that. Do you have video of you doing it? Just interested to see how it looks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 (edited) Here is a video I have of it - not the clearest one mind you as its a little old and the camera quality wasn't as good as it is now. http://www.youtube.c...107/8qnpH4PYl3o Basically if you want to incorporate a drop into the picture then you would ask the dog to drop after they have eaten the treat and as they are on the way back to you. Edited August 8, 2011 by ness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbyne Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 Pretty much - it's much easier when you see it I think. The idea is to have the dog driving hard for the treat (so don't give predictable commands or you will slow them down). If you do your prep work right then they eat the treat and are flying back along the "line" you have established in anticipation of throwing the next treat, when you give the command. You can decrease your criteria a little when you increase distance and then build it back up again. You need quick reactions, though - otherwise it becomes dull to your dog and they have no idea what they are being rewarded for. so last night i put her bowl down and revved her up then released her she was a bit confused and looking at me like mmm why are we doing this. but it was the first time sowill keep going thanks so much i'll keep you up to date on our progress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) woodbyne - I would do at least half a dozen reps of this to start with so she can get the idea. Hold her by the collar, show her that you are dropping a few pieces in the bowl walk a few steps away and when she pulls towards the bowl, release her "get it!" and celebrate! Give her a break and then put down her dinner (maybe in a different room so she understands eatings vs training) and leave her in peace. When Zig has his dry food in his puzzle cube or a chicken frame I don't ask for too much now - just a wait (which I don't even ask for) and take on command. Edited August 9, 2011 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 a woman in the next ring yelling at her dog I love how the person yelling at their dog in the next ring has to be a woman :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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