Hunter Groups Call For End To Puppy Farming

[WreckitWhippet]

They inspect them and they also do vet audits every year but you miss the point the ANKC dont and as is evidenced by what you say and what was onthe TV last night sometimes registered breeders treat their dogs like crap too.

if they do do that how come this breeder slipped through the cracks and was able to treat her dogs like crap. and yes not denying that, this is what im saying they need to employ for each state body some sort of officer to check if they need to that members are breaching the code rather than just sending letters asking questions. thats what they are doing now in Vic. ANKC not doing that they just advise the state controlling bodies. yes sometimes ANKC breeders do treat dogs like crap and everyone knows has seen with their own eyes and do nothing and just laugh about it at a show. talk amongst themselves but do nothing to help the dogs that are mistreated. been going on for years.

where was the ANKC at the round table meeting? reg breeders were obviously represented by DogsVic? im just counting up the 5 organisation that had that round table meeting. APDBA, MDBA, DogsVic, RSPCA who else. whats the use of ANKC when they appear to do nothing and its willy nilly from state to state.

i think in other countries its just AKC, UKC and thats it. answerable to them only the message doesn't get filtered or watered down. this is the problem we haven't got any voice, and its not a united voice its all over the place. so we fade into the background. very frustrating when we are not really getting any sort of message out and members have called for a national voice someone that is well known and respected to be our voice but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears, each state has their own and we have a person in Vic but i've never heard or seen this person i have no idea who it is. it needs to be either a vet (public seem to listen to vets) or someone with a bit of charisma that can get our message across.

there wasn't enough said about what happened at that round table meeting either. i mean i've searched on the net and found transcripts. but as far as i know, DogsVic didn't say too much about it otherthan what was said at the seminar at the puppy farm meeting i attended. and it was very small. all they said was we are looking after the best intersts of our members and we are one of 5 key organisations advising the government. thats it.

anyhow i appear to have made a slight detour from the original subject.

Because not everyone agrees with what treating their dogs like crap means. Some people think all dogs should sleep on satin pillows, some people think any dog seen in a pen is being treated like crap. I think any dog in a crate is being treated like crap. If they were really treating their dogs like crap according to POCTAA why havent they been charged ?

You hit the nail on the head, we already have the legislation and the means to shut down those who are not abiding by POCTAA, why in the hell do we need a vigilante group saying " dob someone in to us ? We already have the RSPCA, Cops and Councils, whose job it is , to recieve reports and investigate. Since when do we need a group like " Socares" to make third hand complaints ?

It just further muddies the water.

[toy*dog]

Because not everyone agrees with what treating their dogs like crap means. Some people think all dogs should sleep on satin pillows, some people think any dog seen in a pen is being treated like crap. I think any dog in a crate is being treated like crap. If they were really treating their dogs like crap according to POCTAA why havent they been charged ?

according to some witnesses that actually worked with these people, they were putting down dogs without going to a vet if you get my drift. using garden tools. it went through the court system and it is documented what they actually did to the dogs now the person claims they are a rescue organisation but clearly they breed dogs and there are also pictures out there on the net of where they keep their dogs i.e. in metal sheds with just fans to cool in the summer and no heaters in winter. on chook wire which must be so hard on the dogs feet so the poo can sift down to the ground without the owner cleaning the cages very often obviously so its all there hard evidence in pictures for everyone to see. and yes council didn't want them to renew licence so they went to VCAT and got approval that way to continue on the same road.

[toy*dog]

They inspect them and they also do vet audits every year but you miss the point the ANKC dont and as is evidenced by what you say and what was onthe TV last night sometimes registered breeders treat their dogs like crap too.

if they do do that how come this breeder slipped through the cracks and was able to treat her dogs like crap. and yes not denying that, this is what im saying they need to employ for each state body some sort of officer to check if they need to that members are breaching the code rather than just sending letters asking questions. thats what they are doing now in Vic. ANKC not doing that they just advise the state controlling bodies. yes sometimes ANKC breeders do treat dogs like crap and everyone knows has seen with their own eyes and do nothing and just laugh about it at a show. talk amongst themselves but do nothing to help the dogs that are mistreated. been going on for years.

where was the ANKC at the round table meeting? reg breeders were obviously represented by DogsVic? im just counting up the 5 organisation that had that round table meeting. APDBA, MDBA, DogsVic, RSPCA who else. whats the use of ANKC when they appear to do nothing and its willy nilly from state to state.

i think in other countries its just AKC, UKC and thats it. answerable to them only the message doesn't get filtered or watered down. this is the problem we haven't got any voice, and its not a united voice its all over the place. so we fade into the background. very frustrating when we are not really getting any sort of message out and members have called for a national voice someone that is well known and respected to be our voice but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears, each state has their own and we have a person in Vic but i've never heard or seen this person i have no idea who it is. it needs to be either a vet (public seem to listen to vets) or someone with a bit of charisma that can get our message across.

there wasn't enough said about what happened at that round table meeting either. i mean i've searched on the net and found transcripts. but as far as i know, DogsVic didn't say too much about it otherthan what was said at the seminar at the puppy farm meeting i attended. and it was very small. all they said was we are looking after the best intersts of our members and we are one of 5 key organisations advising the government. thats it.

anyhow i appear to have made a slight detour from the original subject.

Because not everyone agrees with what treating their dogs like crap means. Some people think all dogs should sleep on satin pillows, some people think any dog seen in a pen is being treated like crap. I think any dog in a crate is being treated like crap. If they were really treating their dogs like crap according to POCTAA why havent they been charged ?

You hit the nail on the head, we already have the legislation and the means to shut down those who are not abiding by POCTAA, why in the hell do we need a vigilante group saying " dob someone in to us ? We already have the RSPCA, Cops and Councils, whose job it is , to recieve reports and investigate. Since when do we need a group like " Socares" to make third hand complaints ?

It just further muddies the water.

oscar law people are claiming that the law isn't good enough and is not administered and in some cases it isn't. RSPCA claimed they could only get to the dogs when they were almost dead so they went and changed it so they had more power so i wonder if its made a difference since we have a new liberal govt in vic who claimed they were going to change the laws to prosecute these sorts of farms.

ETA: they are claiming that authorities turn a blind eye to the suffering they have saved many animals that were govt approved facilities and when they bring the cameras in the farms are dirty with dirty ungroomed dogs running around in their own faeces and poo & wee stained walls and RSPCA are involved to seize these dogs and get them out of there. like the raid that happened with chris brown who went with animal libs to a farm in gippsland. the many farms they have down there. they said it was a govt licenced puppy farm yet when they brought the cameras in you could clearly see it was bad. so they claim they are checking but how do we know they actually are? if there are still farms around like this. how do they exist who is turning a blind eye?

that one i mentioned council has tried for years to shut that farm down but have not succeeded as in the eyes of the law they aren't doing anything wrong are they. they have a licence. no one can prove that they actually put the dogs down with a vet present can they.

Edited September 20, 2011 by toy*dog

[Steve]

thats exactly what i've been thinking of late about that breeder i know ANKC reg that got dobbed in by a puppy purchaser who saw dogs in a pen and a few dogs (small toy dogs often get housed together quite happily in a pen in breeders houses). and everyone got on the band wagon including other breeders meanwhile those same breeders do the exact same things and keep their dogs the exact same way.

i often think if someone came into my property and saw my dogs inside they'd think i never let them out which is not the case at all!! thats why i am careful who i invite in and i always make sure the place is spotlessly clean so they have no reason to dob me in but these days you just don't know who is watching and waiting who simply might have a grudge on you for something completely different not even related to dogs. i mean we all know there was an ANKC breeder that sold a pup and that buyer went to a vet who then dobbed the breeder in! there's that angle too. awful awful stuff. these other people sure had a beef with this breeder and made the fact known to anyone that would listen. i was appauled. it was nasty and it scared the crap out of us, breeders picking on other breeders because they dont' like each other. dobbing each other in. nasty nasty stuff.

i just wondered whose turn it is next. heard over the years of court cases involved breeder against breeder too. doesn't put us all in a good light does it?

Im the girl who takes the complaints - usually its not our members so I dont have to be bothered with them but sometimes it is our members so we have to investigate and put people through the wringer to check them out.

Sometimes we employ a private investigator to do this. You could not possibly imagine what breeders dob each other in for and even if you give them the benefit of the doubt and say they truly believe what it is they are accusing them of the fact they see these things bad enough to dob them in over are so trivial and stupid is amazing. Watch the shit fight that comes out of this.

[toy*dog]

Just what we need, more vexatious complaints, the general public and those with an axe to grind, being egged on by another "animal rights" org.

thats how i read it when i saw it i got in to the site and i thought this would be a good vehicle for someone yes, with an axe to grind with either their neighbors or someone they don't like. dangerous stuff.

[Steve]

Because not everyone agrees with what treating their dogs like crap means. Some people think all dogs should sleep on satin pillows, some people think any dog seen in a pen is being treated like crap. I think any dog in a crate is being treated like crap. If they were really treating their dogs like crap according to POCTAA why havent they been charged ?

according to some witnesses that actually worked with these people, they were putting down dogs without going to a vet if you get my drift. using garden tools. it went through the court system and it is documented what they actually did to the dogs now the person claims they are a rescue organisation but clearly they breed dogs and there are also pictures out there on the net of where they keep their dogs i.e. in metal sheds with just fans to cool in the summer and no heaters in winter. on chook wire which must be so hard on the dogs feet so the poo can sift down to the ground without the owner cleaning the cages very often obviously so its all there hard evidence in pictures for everyone to see. and yes council didn't want them to renew licence so they went to VCAT and got approval that way to continue on the same road.

Its against the law to put down dogs with garden tools why werent they charged? These conditions are against the mandatory code surely they havent been given approval to keep dogs like this?

[toy*dog]

thats exactly what i've been thinking of late about that breeder i know ANKC reg that got dobbed in by a puppy purchaser who saw dogs in a pen and a few dogs (small toy dogs often get housed together quite happily in a pen in breeders houses). and everyone got on the band wagon including other breeders meanwhile those same breeders do the exact same things and keep their dogs the exact same way.

i often think if someone came into my property and saw my dogs inside they'd think i never let them out which is not the case at all!! thats why i am careful who i invite in and i always make sure the place is spotlessly clean so they have no reason to dob me in but these days you just don't know who is watching and waiting who simply might have a grudge on you for something completely different not even related to dogs. i mean we all know there was an ANKC breeder that sold a pup and that buyer went to a vet who then dobbed the breeder in! there's that angle too. awful awful stuff. these other people sure had a beef with this breeder and made the fact known to anyone that would listen. i was appauled. it was nasty and it scared the crap out of us, breeders picking on other breeders because they dont' like each other. dobbing each other in. nasty nasty stuff.

i just wondered whose turn it is next. heard over the years of court cases involved breeder against breeder too. doesn't put us all in a good light does it?

Im the girl who takes the complaints - usually its not our members so I dont have to be bothered with them but sometimes it is our members so we have to investigate and put people through the wringer to check them out.

Sometimes we employ a private investigator to do this. You could not possibly imagine what breeders dob each other in for and even if you give them the benefit of the doubt and say they truly believe what it is they are accusing them of the fact they see these things bad enough to dob them in over are so trivial and stupid is amazing. Watch the shit fight that comes out of this.

yes some of them need to grow up and think to themselves they are representing a group of people out in the community and what is it saying to the community? i try to be diplomatic and not say anything against anyone and try to be friends with them all and my friend who is the boss (secretary) makes sure everyone gets along by telling them we are not going to bring up our personal differences it is not in the interest of the club keep them at home. we are here to enjoy ourselves and each others company she talks to them like children and it works.

[toy*dog]

Because not everyone agrees with what treating their dogs like crap means. Some people think all dogs should sleep on satin pillows, some people think any dog seen in a pen is being treated like crap. I think any dog in a crate is being treated like crap. If they were really treating their dogs like crap according to POCTAA why havent they been charged ?

according to some witnesses that actually worked with these people, they were putting down dogs without going to a vet if you get my drift. using garden tools. it went through the court system and it is documented what they actually did to the dogs now the person claims they are a rescue organisation but clearly they breed dogs and there are also pictures out there on the net of where they keep their dogs i.e. in metal sheds with just fans to cool in the summer and no heaters in winter. on chook wire which must be so hard on the dogs feet so the poo can sift down to the ground without the owner cleaning the cages very often obviously so its all there hard evidence in pictures for everyone to see. and yes council didn't want them to renew licence so they went to VCAT and got approval that way to continue on the same road.

Its against the law to put down dogs with garden tools why werent they charged? These conditions are against the mandatory code surely they havent been given approval to keep dogs like this?

it has to be proven. its just second and third hand info which i dont' doubt for a minute wouldn't be true remember i know this person and i know what they are capable off. but it still has to be proven only heresay. i am so glad in the early years they never got any of my dogs, they wanted some for breeding to their pom cross. it would have killed me to know that any dogs that i bred or even owned would have ended up in that situation with this person.

[Steve]

If we run around judging and accusing people when its not proven then none of us are safe.

[toy*dog]

Because not everyone agrees with what treating their dogs like crap means. Some people think all dogs should sleep on satin pillows, some people think any dog seen in a pen is being treated like crap. I think any dog in a crate is being treated like crap. If they were really treating their dogs like crap according to POCTAA why havent they been charged ?

according to some witnesses that actually worked with these people, they were putting down dogs without going to a vet if you get my drift. using garden tools. it went through the court system and it is documented what they actually did to the dogs now the person claims they are a rescue organisation but clearly they breed dogs and there are also pictures out there on the net of where they keep their dogs i.e. in metal sheds with just fans to cool in the summer and no heaters in winter. on chook wire which must be so hard on the dogs feet so the poo can sift down to the ground without the owner cleaning the cages very often obviously so its all there hard evidence in pictures for everyone to see. and yes council didn't want them to renew licence so they went to VCAT and got approval that way to continue on the same road.

Its against the law to put down dogs with garden tools why werent they charged? These conditions are against the mandatory code surely they havent been given approval to keep dogs like this?

within the law they said that all they could get them on is the height of the pens which were less than what was allowed, all that other stuff, first off RSPCA did try to stop them and they succeeded for a little while but then when it went to VCAT they gave the licence back. council refused to renew licence but then had to give them another licence. but all that other stuff was not mentioned. i guess you need witnesses and no one was game to come forward.

[Steve]

Without witnesses we are sitting ducks for anything any one wants to say about us.

[Cat]

Surely if someone is doing the right thing then they have nothing to worry about. I think there would be a big difference between a happy healthy dog than an emaciated disease ridden one living in its own filth.

What would everyone's solution be then to the puppy farm/byb problem?

[toy*dog]

If we run around judging and accusing people when its not proven then none of us are safe.

nope you are right. there are pictures for the chicken wire and videos and you can clearly see dogs on sitting on it. you can also clearly see dogs in metal sheds small garden sheds with no insulation just iron roofing they pan up etc to the ceiling. dogs with eye infections and all sorts of health problems. they claim that person actually told them that they make no secret of the fact they kill their dogs this way. all still heresay though.

the people who saw this and actually did witness these goings on should be the ones to report it otherwise telling others who tell others just turns into heresay and the truth is compromised then. i guess the ones who witnessed it dont' want to be involved. i know if i witnessed anything like that i would not be able to stop myself taking a garden tool myself and using it!

[toy*dog]

What would everyone's solution be then to the puppy farm/byb problem?

million dollar question there.

[Steve]

Surely if someone is doing the right thing then they have nothing to worry about. I think there would be a big difference between a happy healthy dog than an emaciated disease ridden one living in its own filth.

What would everyone's solution be then to the puppy farm/byb problem?

Thats not quite true when there seems to be a variation in what is doing the right thing and its guilty till proven otherwise.Even when its proven otherwise someone accused has to suffer for years.

[WreckitWhippet]

Surely if someone is doing the right thing then they have nothing to worry about. I think there would be a big difference between a happy healthy dog than an emaciated disease ridden one living in its own filth.

What would everyone's solution be then to the puppy farm/byb problem?

What is " the right thing " Cat ?

According to legislation for the keeping and breeding of dogs in NSW, I'm breaking the law by raising a litter in my loungeroom, the RSPCA and council can come at any time and have me for numerous failings, when it comes to keeping the dogs according to law.

They are better than well fed, most live in the house, they recieve vet care when needed, are exercised, social and happy and I take a lot of steps to prevent illness/disease etc.

According to NSW legislation, I'm no different and I'm not exempt and the laws apply to me, just as they do to " puppy farmers " and BYBers.

If you think the ANKC registered breeders are exempt or somehow they will be OK, think again, because everyone is equal under the law and arguing that I'm a Dogs NSW registered breeder is no excuse for not following it.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Pav Lova

[Steve]

Surely if someone is doing the right thing then they have nothing to worry about. I think there would be a big difference between a happy healthy dog than an emaciated disease ridden one living in its own filth.

What would everyone's solution be then to the puppy farm/byb problem?

The solution lies in having all breeders regardless of what they breed or how many out in the open where they are easily monitored and stop banging drums to get things happening that will never happen.

All this does is ensure they do all they can to remain hidden in fear they get targeted.

[toy*dog]

example: ANKC breeder who got dobbed in by a person who went to a vet, RSPCA confiscated all the dogs some were in season some were puppies, they could not get the breeder on the care as the dogs were all in A1 condition. they tried. it was all over de-barking and taking dogs into public like that which is now against the law in this state.

other ANKC breeder pic was posted on facebook of a puppy being mistreated, but this breed has been known to have an open fontenele which can be due to hydroceph these puppies do not thrive we have one at the moment. they look like they've been starved yet our little guy gets fed every 2 hours, this little dog is mentally impaired and his brain signals because of the fluid in his head are minimizing signals so he doesn't know when to eat and when to drink for instance we have to dropper feed him and he only eats on our laps. he is not full blown hydro though he is quite happy and while he is like that i won't be putting him down he is not in any pain. but this breeder i noticed had a similar dog but it was dubbed this breeder was abusing this dog and then she had dogs seized and this picture put up everyone saying they are a farmer.

i said to my vet if animal people came in and seized my little hydro puppy that we are giving round the clock care to becuase they are sick and so fragile i'd be prosecuted as a notorious puppy farmer wouldn't i. the vet said you have taken him to me and other vets and it is documented so he doesn't think so but i don't know.......

Edited September 20, 2011 by toy*dog

[WreckitWhippet]

Surely if someone is doing the right thing then they have nothing to worry about. I think there would be a big difference between a happy healthy dog than an emaciated disease ridden one living in its own filth.

What would everyone's solution be then to the puppy farm/byb problem?

The solution lies in having all breeders regardless of what they breed or how many out in the open where they are easily monitored and stop banging drums to get things happening that will never happen.

All this does is ensure they do all they can to remain hidden in fear they get targeted.

Agreed..

People also need to stop and seperate the issues of " breeders " and " pound dogs". They are not one in the same and simply saying that by ceasing all "puppy farming" and " BYBing" it will see an end to dogs in pounds, is not true.

Edit to fix the quoting that stuffed up

Edited September 20, 2011 by Pav Lova

[Steve]

There's also a huge part here that never seems to sink in.

That breeder last night on the telly was complying with what we are all supposed to be doing . Pens of the right size, sealed floors, picking up poo health checks, keeping records, registered breeders, that is how the mandatory codes and guidlines wants us to keep our dogs. that breeder was within the code and within the regs and laws more than any breeder who whelps their puppies in their lounge room. What the hell is doing the right thing?

Clearly following the law and codes isnt the right thing so when someone works out for us what is the right thing perhaps we will all feel if we are doing that we dont have anything to worry about.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Steve